Happiness Is An Inside Job with Carmen Dell' Orefice

Carmen Dell' Orefice grew up in New York City in the 1930’s during the Great Depression. She was encouraged by her mother to study with the Ballet Russes and then went on to swim at a national class level—nearly missing the US Olympic team.  On the bus returning from swim practice, she was discovered and asked to attend a photo shoot, which was poorly received. Despite this Carmen was sent to Vogue Magazine two weeks later, where Carol Philips the beauty editor found her photogenic, landing the cover of Vogue in 1948 at the age of fifteen. In this interview the world’s oldest working supermodel shares overcoming pernicious anemia due to malnutrition, learning to be on her own problem solver as a youth, and supporting her family through her modeling career---spanning over seventy-five years. The Guinness Book of World Records awarded her the “longest career as a catwalk model.”  She remains active on the runways, making appearances for John Galliano in 2000, Hermes in 2004, Alberta Ferretti in 2011 and twice in 2012 for Norisol Ferrari and Merimekko.  Appearing in films such as Curse of the Jade Scorpion, and Martin Scorsese’s The Age of Innocence.  Her career is the subject of the documentary---Carmen: A Life in Fashion. 

We celebrate Carmen’s 90th birthday as she imparts timeless wisdom about her daily practice of self-care, career, love, and motivationally infectious outlook on life. We are thrilled to share this iconoclast’s sage advice and remarkable stories on this episode of Intrinsic Drive®.

Intrinsic Drive®  is produced by Ellen Strickler and Phil Wharton. Special thanks to Andrew Hollingworth, our sound engineer and technical editor.  For more information on this and other episodes visit us at www.whartonhealth.com/intrinsicdrive.   Follow us on socials (links below) including  Instagram  @intrinsicdrivelive

Transcript

Phil Wharton: 0:00

A lifetime of training, practice, study, hard work through discipline, some achieve excellence, mastery, fulfillment, self actualization. What can we learn from their beginning, discoveries, motivations, and falls? How do they dust themselves off and resume their journey? During these interviews, stories and conversations, we reveal their intrinsic drive. Carmen Dell' Orefice grew up in New York City in the 1930s during the Great Depression, encouraged to study at the Ballet Russes by her mother. As a young athlete, she swam at a national class level, nearly missing the US Olympic team. On The Bus returning from swim practice, she was discovered and asked to attend a photoshoot poorly received. Carmen was sent to Vogue magazine Two weeks later, where Carol Phillips the beauty editor found her photogenic landing the cover of Vogue in 1948 at the age of 15. And this interview the world's oldest working supermodel shares overcoming pernicious anemia due to malnutrition, learning to be your own problem solver as a youth supporting her family through her modeling career-- spanning over 75 years. The Guinness Book of World Records awarded her the longest career as a catwalk model. She remains active on the runways making appearances for John Galliano in 2000, Hermes in 2004, Alberta Ferretti in 2011 and twice in 2012 for Norisol Ferreri, and Marimekko. Appearing in such films as Curse of the Jade Scorpion and Martin Scorsese's the Age of Innocence. Her career is the subject of a documentary

Carmen: 1:36

A Life in fashion, we celebrate Carmen's 90th birthday as she imparts timeless wisdom about our daily practice of self care, career love, and motivationally infectious outlook on life. We are thrilled to share this iconoclast's sage advice and remarkable stories on this episode of intrinsic drive.

Unknown: 2:00

On accepted, what one had to do, and one had to do things to survive. And what does a child know? Except how whatever adults are around them, say and what they do. So I grew up patterns programmed not to expect anything, my way. It was. It was worth my life. To do what my mother said, or else. Very different time very different time, will you? Yeah.

Carmen: 2:53

Events, time, and life happened to everyone, and we grew into a you know, better times, but it took everything worthwhile takes time. The people I needed, showed up best at a time when I needed that kind of help. Starting with my father. My ballet master, then there was that. That was Russian ballet very serious. Then, because it was Nicholas Cunasky, who trained the Olympians. I was into gymnastics, and just by accident. And I had been a swimmer, competitive swimmer. I had to, I broke my legs skiing before the last tryouts that I qualified, but I was an AAU swimmer, and there was one girl in California hadn't swum against all these things, doing this made me think of all those bits and pieces of my life.

Phil Wharton: 4:16

Wow. I didn't realize you were such a super athlete as well. I mean, I knew about the gymnastics and I picked that up really quick when we were working with you. I only had that one time with you, but I could see your alignment. And we talked a little bit about that. And so that makes total sense. How much that must have helped you in your career in terms of posture.

Carmen: 4:37

Well, in retrospect absolutely. But my career was just my career. And that was you see when I had to give up my ballet because I had rheumatic fever and I was, in those days they put you to bed. I was home all day long. Alone. There was only radio at the time. I missed school, I was alone. At a certain point, my mother went against medicine against what the doctor said, because she was Hungarian you see, European. She was bringing me up alone. And she decided I needed movement. So she would take she was loving the water, a great swimmer. We would go to the Park Sheraton on Saturdays, when she had off to go to the local drugstore and have a tuna fish sandwich, which was a great treat--and a ginger ale or something. And in the swimming pool, the woman who ran the swimming pool was an ex-Olympic champion, who saw me swim. And she asked my mother, you know that your daughter is a natural swimmer, if you bring her if you let her come here regularly, at least two or three times a week. So she seems to love the water. I will train her. And she did

Phil Wharton: 6:29

Wow. So she was one of the early coaches.

Carmen: 6:32

Yes, early, they just fell into my life. And this was before the modeling started. So I was, you know, thirteen, and I was twelve, thirteen. And I've lived such a life emotionally already. Not that it bothered me. It was just my life. But this is in retrospect, looking back on things that taught me how to get in line, and make priorities, and think for myself, and my mother had said. She told me everything that was wrong with me and everything that was ugly about me my ears like sedan doors and, feet like coffins. I mean, I never got over feeling ugly. Even after. It was a miracle to me, because doesn't everybody see everything that's wrong with me? And I had braces on my teeth. I couldn't smile for years and photographs in. I mean, it was life was a trip that I learned to navigate. Because what was good about it. So good that I wanted. I wanted to see what was out there.

Phil Wharton: 8:07

Such a lover of life, Carmen, let's go to that Genesis, because you're taking us into the beginning of your journey. Was there an inciting moment for you in this?

Carmen: 8:21

an exciting moment?

Phil Wharton: 8:22

An inciting like something that sort of was a catalyst for this, for this time in your life? Right before the modeling when it was all starting.

Carmen: 8:36

I was in a very quiet, sad. I couldn't looking back. I did the best I could. I had god parents who were cartoonists, and they told me I wasn't so ugly. As my mother said.

Phil Wharton: 8:52

So they really empowered you.

Carmen: 8:58

And it was a yes. There were people around who saw in the my future that I was not objective enough to see, I didn't understand time, except what I had to do the day or a that was my life was worth, my mom. Two ladies living together as my mother gave up her career to feed me, she didn't leave me on a church doorstep. Although there were periods where I had to, she was still working and had to go on the road she was in Broadway shows. And I would have to say in those times. They had places people had rooms, and they took care of other people's children. They lived there. I lived there for a whole semester, let's say. And my mother would come and visit but I always knew she would come back. She wasn't abandoning me, I had to be on my own. I hads to deal with strangers, strange, unhappy children who lived in the same house. And we moved so many times. There was no continuity of building buddies, friends, because every time we couldn't pay the rent, we had to move on. So I, by the time I was in eighth grade, I still hadn't learned nobody had picked up in those days. They didn't know about attention deficit. Or even though when you reverse numbers, things

Phil Wharton: 11:06

Before the labels, yeah, before the diagnosis. Yeah.

Carmen: 11:09

Yeah. Nobody. If you read the chart in school, the eye chart, and I read it well enough. Nobody thought to take me to an eye doctor. I was stigmatic from the beginning. So of course, I never read properly. Because I couldn't.

Phil Wharton: 11:28

It wasn't an identification. It wasn't sophistication in medicine at that time.

Carmen: 11:33

Yeah. But be that as it may. Necessity is the mother of moving forward because children don't know anything. But they're to be satisfied. Be somebody you know, I was kind of talented. eager In you know, physically. But I love to paint, I love to sow. I have always considered to be alignment. I'm, of course, now by choice. I'm an unemployed housewife. What one inspired to in the 30s. Whatever you want. Set out the church. School. Anyone who you saw had a family. Oh, yes. That's what I want. I'm living maybe someone will want me someday, and I'll be married and have children at home. And I'm going to do it differently than my mother. I'm going to, I'm going to tell my child be with her and teach her and make sure she learns all the things I didn't learn

Phil Wharton: 13:02

and have that stability in the middle of a great depression. Have that stability would have been the gold standard.

Carmen: 13:11

Yes. So when my mother took me out of bed, against doctor's orders, and I began to swim I, my physical self got better. And by accident, my godparents who were cartoonists, somebody saw me on a bus going to my swimming. See, I'm just giving you this chronology. And so I was

Phil Wharton: 13:44

and now you're fourteen, thirteen, fourteen correct?

Carmen: 13:48

I'm 13 when the Crosstown bus Mrs. Landshoff, the wife of a Harper's Bazzar photographer, saw me. To make sure my mother said yeah, go over there and see what they want. I rollerskated over to Fifty Seventh Street, I only lived on Fifty Fifth Street. The photographer did some tests with me for junior Harper's Bazzar. They didn't, those pictures didn't turn out.

Phil Wharton: 14:19

Now it was that was that the Jones Beach shoot. Were you doing a shoot at Jones Beach? And you used to roller skate around because you know you guys didn't? You didn't have as much money for bus fare. So you got around rollerskating. So is this amazing?

Carmen: 14:34

Yeah. So make use of everything. And what helped my heart recover from the rheumatic fever. I also had pernicious anemia because of lack of proper, proper nutrition over those growing years, but nobody knew that At that time that was discovered, as soon as I started working for Conde Nast...what was I going to tell you? you were going through the Harper's Bazaar shoot that you did at Jones Beach, and then you were talking through the rheumatic fever and the anemia. Now, you you had injections right from the doctor had started? Now, because of you know, the rheumatic fever, I was very, I was very weak. Yes. Swimming, helped. And when my godfather said, we had all these pictures at Harper's Bazaar didn't turn out my godfather said look, "She doesn't look so ugly to me".

Phil Wharton: 16:00

Yeah, let's let's go to Vouge, right? Let's go to Vouge.

Carmen: 16:05

One of the people at the Sunday guitar society meetings that I was allowed to sit in on, because I love guitar classical guitar music. There was Carol Phillips. And my godfather said, you know, "Don't you think, she would be photogenic". And Carol says I believe that the whole wonderful story? "Yes. I think she's photogenic". Well, why don't you think anyone, do you think you can put her in Vogue? And Carol thought that I was so well behaved and mature. She said, we'll give it a try. I got we didn't have a telephone at the time. They sent a messenger from Conde' Nast up to my floor. This is what I was going to tell you..

Phil Wharton: 17:13

So they would send runners back and forth because you didn't have a phone. To notify you of the job.

Carmen: 17:19

And what really mended my heart. Think about exercise. I was forced, and these were not little these were big steps in the old going up. We lived on the top floor. And my dear I have to carry the groceries up carry the garbage down. I was up and down those stairs several times a day. What can I tell you. What is better

Phil Wharton: 17:48

Nothing better nothing better up and down stairs. Yeah, yeah, no, that's that'll get the heart rate up of any even Olympic athlete would would raise their heart rate and stairs, you know, in a brownstone or?

Carmen: 17:59

Yeah. As I did rollerskate over to Conde' Nast. The first day I worked for a photographer called Clifford Coffin. Those pictures were full pages in Vogue, I got $7.50 an hour then. Our rent was $30 a month. With my mother, it was hard sometimes to pay. Yes. So it was a windfall. We were partners you see. You see how, I was my mother's caretaker.

Phil Wharton: 18:46

Okay, okay. Yes. Yeah, at the age of 15 yep.

Carmen: 18:53

Younger, fourteen even believe me. I when she was at work after school, I had to clean the house. I mean, major stuff you know, washing sheets in the bathtub, which was in my bedroom. Coldwater flat living. What can I tell you. So the glamorous beginning is I'm always looking to see what people expect of me at these first sittings at Vouge, Because photographers would what their work they have many studios on one floor that 480 Lexington Avenue. And they would come in the first day. Some photographer came in and looked at me and looked at Coffin, and then looked at the pictures, and he wanted to use me and they kind of passed me around. But those those groups of photographers were the ex patriots of Europe and Alexander Lieberman has preceded this group of people, Joffe. Horst. Well, Eppin wasn't European and he brought them over to escape, you know, being interned. The war, they were still it was very dicey with with the Germans. It was a nasty time. So, Lieberman helped his buddies, his these. They were cultured. They had history in them, they had developed or ascetically in a certain place that America certainly was not.

Phil Wharton: 21:11

So these were true two artists Horst P. Horst, and Irving Penn and Norman Parkinson, and they all part of this same school. Is that correct?

Carmen: 21:21

Joffe well, Parkinson was later. These were these were really the the early ones shall Joffe, Horst. People, you don't even remember their games. But these are the men who made me feel like I didn't know what they were looking at. I couldn't understand that. But I was doing something. Right.

Phil Wharton: 21:54

Yes. So these were really this was part of your discovery. I mean, through these experiences and events, these new things were coming to light. These were your mentors, coaches and teachers. And what was revealed to you through this what was happening?

Carmen: 22:11

That I I could understand instructions, and I wasn't too stupid to live as my mother would often say. I didn't understand humor. And you know, for a brilliant woman. She was young, she had me when she was 21. She had come from Hungary. I told you that horrible beginning, which she never let me forget. And I'm glad I didn't. And I'm glad I believed her. Because as I grew in life, I was. I was I'm so glad that I did everything I did.

Phil Wharton: 23:01

Yes.

Carmen: 23:02

Because she didn't deserve it, and she kept me going. And nobody loved me as much as my mother, which I understood.

Phil Wharton: 23:13

Yes, I understand. Yes.

Carmen: 23:16

It wasn't contentious. Because I What is it when a dog rolls over and puts all fours up?

Phil Wharton: 23:29

bliss and contentment. Yeah. What about the your drives Carmen? What urged you forward? What were some of the external and internal forces and motivations during this time in your life?

Carmen: 23:45

Well, I knew there was something I knew I belonged. Somewhere, I wanted to go somewhere. It was not away from my mother. It was, I had this unassailable thing, that until my mother has what she wanted and needed. I was not free to really want anything for myself. So when I made this money that I brought home, I was able to say, Mommy, you always wanted to go to college. Now you can go besides, I'm working. And she did. She went to Hunter, I think I told you.

Phil Wharton: 24:40

That's amazing.

Carmen: 24:41

She graduated with honors in three and a half years.

Phil Wharton: 24:48

Oh my gosh, and you were able to fund you were able to fund that through through your work

Carmen: 24:52

Yeah, I was paying t e rent she didn't have she a d she joined The swim team. T ey asked her to leave, because he was too demoralizing for he young girls. Because she as too professional a swimmer She was too good, she beat them

Phil Wharton: 25:18

She was too much of a ringer. Get out of here. all. You know, you're showing the young, young girls up. So this is where you got a lot of the swimming talent from obviously, from your mom.

Carmen: 25:38

The Astoria swimming pool. In the summer, you know, there was no when I'm five years old, my mother what was going to night school trying to finish. She did finish her high school that way. My father, she had kicked him out the depression. And he's the no- goodnick who, never brought home the bacon. He was a sensitive violinist. He did the best he could. The WPA. You know, this is a family background that I lived. I'm looking at two people. My mother was so strong. My father was an artistic, classic musical family and Italy had come over here. My mother, he was he was he was 20 years older than my mother and knocked her up.

Phil Wharton: 26:36

Okay? Yes. Yes.

Carmen: 26:39

But he married. That's the honorable thing. But he had asked her to have an abortion. She didn't, wouldn't do that. And she always told me my father didn't want me. Which, of course, nobody loved me quite as, without reservation. As my father because of his nature for one. He looks at a baby and cries. He was the unqualified fountain of love and acceptance in my life.

Phil Wharton: 27:24

So you always maintained a relationship with him, even after? Yes,

Carmen: 27:30

if they had lived together it would have been cheaper because I was paying their rent separately.

Phil Wharton: 27:35

Oh, you paid his as well. Wow, you were paying double rent at 15 years old. That is really remarkable.

Carmen: 27:46

Money has no meaning except what it can do, I would not understand. I I never thought of going to school once I, at a certain point. I had to by law go to a professional children's school for you know working children. Theatre arts children, and you go through the hours and day. Well, I had no background to make use of three hours a day. I never really learned to read properly. But they still, there was something I did and understood about learning by hearing and listening. And they they gave me good marks. You know what? One thing I excelled in was geometry. And one teacher in the large school and I went to 57th Street, which was right up Fifty Eighth street which was right near where I had to go swimming. This is was so synchronistic the geography of everything and how people were there. But don't let me babble on too long, I want you to hear what you need to hear from me.

Phil Wharton: 29:17

Yes. Now this is fabulous. What about Carmen? Let's go to a low point. Do you know the fall? Tell me about one of the lowest or some of the lowest moments in your career or life overall? Was there an inciting moment or event? a low point that you can reme

Carmen: 29:34

I have to start with my first death? Yes. And that's when that's when I was maybe 12 and a half. The doctor told my mother You have to put her to bed, she can't dance. As I thought I had no I was not interested in anything. I just, it was the saddest, my mother as I said, I'm repeating myself, and she, you know, for fear of hurting because he said she's gonna die. Right. But she's superseded that and got me moving because her intelligence, you see told her. And she was right, because now it's a weakness of the muscles of the heart, rheumatic fever-- It was virus of the depression. Many people had that, who had weak immunnity, and so on and so forth. So what was that? So other than that was. See. Nothing. Really. I never felt that low, or posting not wanting to exist. I didn't, I didn't.

Phil Wharton: 31:08

Because that was your passion. That was your passion, dancing. And then all of a sudden in a moment, they're saying you can't dance anymore. And so then that's just ripped from you that that lifeforce.

Carmen: 31:19

Yeah. And then my mother, of course, over time, I understood it. But it was very, very difficult because she tried to kill herself several times. She was really depressed and with great reason, you see. When I was really young, when she was going to night school to do her high school. Finish high school. She was in love with her English teacher who was married to my father. They were trying to live together. And I knew about her affair with Mr. Zimwole, because she had brought me into school. To show me off to him, because she thought I would entice him to marry her. But he was married, as she told she tried to turn on the gas. Oh, so I was in. Just that was my first thing in school. I was in those years. You started at six years old, and you started kindergarten kinds of stuff. And I was with Sarah. That day. She was taken off to Bellevue. I don't know who it was. But they called the school The teacher took me home. Because she was informed my mother was in the hospital and there was nobody else. And now, goodness of her heart, I guess, I spent the summer with her from public school, in Astoria. Imagine this child, all these events, you see to adjust to.

Phil Wharton: 33:35

Yes

Carmen: 33:36

because I didn't.

Phil Wharton: 33:38

And this is all shaping you. This is all shaping your character and giving you this resilience. And in this, you know, this alone time and figuring it out. And it's just, it's remarkable the training that you're getting here.

Carmen: 33:51

Yes. And that's only skimming the surface with some of the story. I am I am. This person. Do I like? The events I have to deal with? Some of them? Yes. And some of them? No. But I know it's up to me how I handle it, you see. And I'm and I'm in control of what I'm able to figure out. Sometimes I can't figure things out. I just I let it go. Because it's the best I can do. But I'm always pushing myself to think outside of the box of what is supposed to be the norm and usual.

Phil Wharton: 34:46

Yes

Carmen: 34:48

Because it doesn't work in society. I've looked at moving all the decades forward. I wasn't wrong. Everyone was Saying something and doing something different.

Phil Wharton: 35:02

Right.

Carmen: 35:03

And I know what was important is what you do.

Phil Wharton: 35:06

Right. And so and so that brings us to kind of what steered you back, kind of your pivot. What was the actual thing that steered you back on course with all these hardships? What turned you around?

Carmen: 35:22

The little pleasures, and interactions that I was forced to have with strangers, like teachers. Living in foster foster homes. It's a desire. It's a desire to have more ice cream. Yes, yes. Right. Right. And you didn't, one didn't think at least I did. Some children might. But it was always you know, something physical I had to deal with during the day, an injustice and cruelty that was bestowed upon me that I had no champion. And I had to suck it up.

Phil Wharton: 36:23

Yeah. And you yourself had to become the champion, turning these obstacles into opportunity. It's very beautiful. What about thought and Yeah.

Carmen: 36:34

Just skip to my late life.

Phil Wharton: 36:36

Yes.

Carmen: 36:37

Uh, when George James lost my first money that I saved my whole life. It was something I didn't take it emotionally. It didn't. I didn't they Oh, my God, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen to me is when I can figure out, I'm instantly on the job of Carmen. And then Madoff, was within seconds. I didn't even give it another thought. Because I understood when it happened instantly. And it was amazing. The whole Madoff, my whole Madoff involvement through the man I've been keeping company with for twelve years, Polempt who had put Madoff in business. It's too wild. I've been, I've had the privilege of real experience.

Phil Wharton: 37:42

Yes, yeah, to be able to turn around that quick to get a phone call from a friend. And immediately you knew exactly what had happened. And you just were able to go into motion, you were able to, to go back into modeling, say, hey, look, I'm ready to work again.

Carmen: 38:02

I didn't, I didn't even think of modeling because it was so immediate, you know, modeling. That happened. Madoff happened what ten, twelve years ago, I was in my 80s or late 70s and lost all my money. Again, I had nothing except the photographs. I had taken over the years with Madoff and Ruth on the yacht. And we had given them a party when their son was engaged and, I had all this socialization. And these people are kind of boring, but... Norman had such a long relationship and he was such a wonderful man. And that was fine. I knew I had this apartment to sell. I owned my apartment, which I'm still in. I just came across some papers where I had it on the market for sale, you know it's so amazing. I'm so, glad that. Somebody who my did my accounting happened to be a tax attorney and an accountant. And he brought me through the maze of that Madoff story is a thing all of itself. People didn't get money back, believe me. That's all false news.

Phil Wharton: 39:42

That makes sense. Yes.

Carmen: 39:44

Everyone could qualify because of the kind of account they had could apply for, the top amount was $500,000 even if you had lost 100 million Which some did. Jamie Diamond lost 700 billion.

Phil Wharton: 40:08

Oh my gosh.

Carmen: 40:11

So in in the end it's a great, you know, great. Soothing to me that greater minds than me were suckered in.

Phil Wharton: 40:23

Yeah, I know that you were not alone in this in one of the schemes of the century. In the rollback, looking back in the rearview mirror, Carmen, if you had the opportunity, what would you redo or do differently?

Carmen: 40:36

Well if there were a skill? If I were, I'd have to be a different person. I would, I would, get crasser. How can I take care of myself, I would stay in school. I would, I would find a way not to put myself in thinking, I could never learn anything from books or that kind of environment. I used to watch my mother reading and writing. You know, my mother never bought me a book. Well, I never a lot of it is was conditioning. What were the years when I'm in my 40s when I was having my eyes examined. And the doctor said, Why are you having such trouble with with trifocals. We tried to contact lenses. You've been? What did you do in school? That my doctor said Dr. Pearce. I said, Well, frankly poorly. He said, "but you couldn't see you were stigmatic all your life. Do you mean you didn't wear glasses for that in school? I said no. I've never worn glasses. Well, you need this, this and this. Yourself, at forty-three I started reading.

Phil Wharton: 42:41

Wow.

Carmen: 42:45

And when things interest me, I still have echoes of that habit. And when I'm tired, especially now the old patterning in my brain of dyslexia and reversing numbers that I can see it? I can't I have to control it consciously at once. It wants to take over. It's amazing what the brain is.

Phil Wharton: 43:14

That's amazing.

Carmen: 43:17

I would, I would follow my interest and my curiosity. And I would be Carmen's best friend and believe in her.

Phil Wharton: 43:28

Yes. That's Yeah, that's so beautiful. Yeah,

Carmen: 43:34

Which I do daily.

Phil Wharton: 43:35

Yes I know us that that's part of what wakes you up in the morning and gives you that zest for life that you still have every day. Carmen, what about

Carmen: 43:46

In spite of what my body is?

Phil Wharton: 43:48

In spite of but yeah,

Carmen: 43:51

What I have. Continue. Go ahead. I don't want to cut you off.

Phil Wharton: 43:55

Take us to the anvil, there's been so much of this for you. I mean, it's a lifetime of but what event or decision that stands out as a defining moment that shaped your destiny.

Carmen: 44:13

Well, that's assuming I I know that I will find my destiny before I leave the planet, you know,

Phil Wharton: 44:28

still still a searcher of beautiful searcher. That's what's so powerful about you is the questioning and continuing the process. You're a woman of great process.

Carmen: 44:42

It's just I have to understand it. I have to, I know when I don't know. I try not to advertise that.

Phil Wharton: 44:52

Right

Carmen: 44:52

And I have fooled alot of the people alot of the time, that I wouldn't have been able to pretend to be this, you know fashion person. You know, I'm not my own physical type. So the

Phil Wharton: 45:07

No, I understand. hardest thing for me was, is still to, except there's a collective idea of what I look like, that I don't agree with or

Carmen: 45:30

I've had to learn to be gracious. Appear to accept their understand, as I said, I'm not my own physical type. opinion, which is, you know, peaches and cream and all these wonderful accolades, and stuff, and being grateful. And I am but not the way they think by default.

Phil Wharton: 45:58

That's right. That's right. And now, yeah, and and go ahead, Carmen, go ahead.

Carmen: 46:08

Let's cover a little more. You're okay. I'm really late in my life. How are you today? Well, I haven't had this kind of pollen allergy. My whole life. I'm allergic to little things. Strawberries, penicillin. When the body is shrinking down, which I'm doing my best to keep it hydrated. And it doesn't mean just drinking water because the body needs solid food.

Phil Wharton: 46:53

Yes

Carmen: 46:53

In order water to stick to anything. So that the body can have the signal to make a new cell as close to the original. So it's understanding how the human process works and how science works. And everybody is invited to the same party, everybody has a reservation, you know? It's the trip you arranged for yourself. And the comfort in getting where we're all ultimately going, which is dust to dust.

Phil Wharton: 47:37

That's right, now you told me something beautiful. Last time we talked is it. I'm learning to see myself from the inside out and learning, learning to really embrace this process.

Carmen: 47:47

Yes! See I started with people who are meaningful, the first European repatriated artists. Then it was the doctor at Conde Nast. After my first few jobs there, they certainly did. The staff Doctor, doctor, Ogden. Herbert Nadan Ogden his full name gave me hormone shots because he could see no sign. I looked like a little boy. My chest was so flat it was concave. But that was 14. I was close to seventeen. When I had my first forced periods because of the shots of liver and iron, hormones, hormones, were so unheard of then. My mother was so brilliant. And of course, it was for free. And Dr. Ogden and his wife Martha befriended my mother, and would they would take us out for dinner and after Jones Beach, we became friends.

Phil Wharton: 49:13

And very innovative at that time, very innovative to do hormone therapy in the 40s. There

Carmen: 49:19

Yeah. And my mother let him. But imagine this doctor who, ahead of his time can do that. And the liver and iron shots because of the anemia. And he says that's not going to work unless you know, the hormones

Phil Wharton: 49:41

Have the endocrine system. You've got to rebuild.

Carmen: 49:44

It was so wonderful to go and endure that little pain because somebody wanted to see me. I had such a crush on him. Oh. yes. Yeah, I had a crush on everybody. You know, I was in love with everybody.

Phil Wharton: 50:06

That's that's a good thing to be

Carmen: 50:11

That's incontrovertible. That's because of my father. Because he gave me unconditional love. I could do no wrong.

Phil Wharton: 50:24

So you were all out there seeking that. And I watched an interview with you. And you said, advice to women. And you were saying, look, not not with sex, but be in love with love. Don't, don't smoke, don't drink, and be in love with love. And I thought that was very beautiful. on your on your journey

Carmen: 50:49

You have it all there. Because what I'm looking at today is such a sad retrogression. A falling apart of all boundaries, and kids are generations. Under 30. And the young ones, they have a running running rampant. They have such hard times ahead of them until they realize the error of their choices.

Phil Wharton: 51:23

That's right. That's right. No, it's such a such a beautiful point with all this. All this hardship, is really refined your spirit and being able to figure things out on your own and the master of your destiny. On your journey, Carmen, what's most important to you now? What does the road ahead look like for you? What's next?

Carmen: 51:46

Oh, I'm so curious I'll let you know when I get there. Don't I don't I my last paying job was February 11, last year,

Phil Wharton: 51:59

last year, before the pandemic

Carmen: 52:02

I'm going to be ninety in a couple of months, in a couple of weeks.

Phil Wharton: 52:06

That's, that's right.

Carmen: 52:08

The number that astonishing. All of a sudden, I'm astonished. I don't know what to make of it. And I'm good. I'd love to know, I can you figure out what are my options? What are the possibilities? What I'd like to do, I hope it's close to something enjoyable. You know, what I'm physically capable of doing at this point because I am degenerative stuff for the last two years, which is not getting better, it's getting harder to handle. And I am dependent on prednisone, and another modafinil. I've let go of control that I can do everything myself. And I accept this help from pill because it allows me to function, on my terms albeit at half mast you know. At half mast you know. But I'm grateful for what I'm able to speak about and that my imagination works. That I can still see mistakes I make and correct them and enjoy the journey. Onward I that I don't need, things, stuff, although you never know that, from this little apartment I've lived in since 1974. I've never thrown a thing out. It a quick move until I got a two bedroom apartment. And I never I never moved out of here.

Phil Wharton: 54:10

I love all your pictures and just just that, you know that brief time I was there with the session with you and it was just so beautiful to you know, take a brief glimpse into the snapshot of just so much life of

Carmen: 54:24

Oh, yeah, you know, I totally forgot. You were in my apartment. But I I was focused on the two of you. But I'm glad that you understand. If somebody could do an autopsy of this apartment. That's a goal for me. And I might be able to swing it, because I don't live you know I don't waste my time or my money at this moment, at least not the way I might of in the past, you know. I have wonderful stories, wonderful relationships with the people I have met in my life. And it would impress the world. But I'm not put up this earth to impress people. But hopefully to inspire them to help themselves think life is wonderful, and to keep on keeping on under any circumstances, particularly if they're good circumstances. You know, that's a problem in itself.

Phil Wharton: 55:55

And the fact that you continually do for yourself, and you have this very robust self -care routine, as we were talking about last time.

Carmen: 56:05

Working my way through Dr. Ogden, I had to have my knees replaced double knee surgery. And then I have to have one hip, and then two months later I had the other hip, and that was within the last a year, you're here. And it was a challenge. They do certain kind of right after surgery that I was lucky how it all happened. And Mrs. Castleman, like, the anesthesiologist, the person who handled the medication. She said, Take the medic, got to take the oil, she won't be able to do the movements. And if you don't do the movements, there are a lot more surgery. Don't think about just take. You don't have to convince me. I did. I did the journey from hospital to And know it and navigat it. And understand that all hospital after the surgery. Hospitals are at war with each hose people are human beings ho are caught in the system. Th other. They don't. That's a particular story medicine as I've experienced, lasered my life and how the system works. y are, one thing the Catholic C urch pasted in my soul before I

Phil Wharton: 57:41

lack of communication. Right. Right. Right. No, that makes sense. found them to be a frog in my rms, and less was very simple th ngs. Do unto to others. Golden rule. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Carmen: 58:12

It's very simple. Very simple. But, but but doing it. People don't they do what they want selfish. That's when I knew early out. That you know, I knew what that meant. But why are they doing this? Right? Why do I say that to be? And I must be brilliant to have figured that all out. I kept it to myself, but I have the help of my mother, who let me leave the church period. And she didn't chastise me for that. She just allowed me to do that, both single most important thing I think my mother, one of the most important things. So, I was lucky with what she thought was important. It coincided with what I wanted to do. And it was one of the first times I remember my mother letting me do something I wanted to do.

Phil Wharton: 59:37

She really realized realize that that importance. Now when we look back, oh seven, seven. Wow. When we look back, you know any parting gems of advice would you like to leave with us, Carmen?

Carmen: 59:54

Well, let me

Phil Wharton: 1:00:05

Take your time.

Carmen: 1:00:28

Try a little kindness. But in the real sense. It's dollars and cents, because we live in a monetary world and anyone who doesn't deal with that way they should have they're not teaching their children how to process no matter what. Save, save, no matter how little money you make, put two cents away. a jar of pennies,

Phil Wharton: 1:01:20

Right? No. Piggy Bank, Penny bank? Yeah.

Carmen: 1:01:24

Yeah, of course when I started making grown up money I didn't go out and spend it. I don't. I don't need to buy things to look more important to the world around me. If I emotionally love something and want it, I ask myself, do I need it? How am I going to use it? I'm not. I don't. I don't envy. I don't want I just want to still find what Carmen is supposed to do. I'm still looking, you see.

Phil Wharton: 1:02:13

A life of purpose and meaning.

Carmen: 1:02:19

Of course, people around me when I read articles I reinforce And that brings me back to Jim.

Phil Wharton: 1:02:32

Yes.

Carmen: 1:02:39

Which America is not known for, we are the most obese country in the world. What kind of movement is good, the individual shouldn't do and copy me. I never copied Jane Fonda? I knew a lot of surgeons, were going to have a good practice because people blindly follow like sheep, without feeling their bodies

Phil Wharton: 1:03:15

right from the inside. Yeah.

Carmen: 1:03:19

I had a background, and I was very physical and I enjoyed my physicality, and swinging and dancing. So, the thing is as I aged I became aware I couldn't, I didn't have the stamina that I wanted. Unless I kept pushing it in shape I could never let up doing you know, I didn't go to a gym because I knew everything. You know, I don't have to go and pick up their germs. But I did it at home. I had a neat little roller on my enclosed balcony, of course that broke a long time ago. I wish I could find one that fit. But I have my bicycle out there. And I know at any given moment I feel I've done something. And I and I have the means. I live in in a gymnasium. You know.

Phil Wharton: 1:04:33

Yes, I know you've got all your training supplies right there the therapy table, the exercise bike, you've got all your hand weights.

Carmen: 1:04:42

What happened at a certain point because of what all the operations I had to have. It was something happened to my body. That was very hard for me. To help. It was because, I'm looking for something here. Oh please. Carmen you're so. I have a slightly disorderly, I forget. And I'm working on memory. And that all has to do with circulation to the Brain, and balance of not lying down too much when things might hurt. I pay attention and I stop. And I know I have enough experience, but it was when. Oh I just wanted to read it to you it's so sweet. It says

Phil Wharton: 1:06:00

Oh please

Carmen: 1:06:03

Anyway that's neither here of there. It was the first thing. It's right here. What I do, I just be holding something in my hand and looking for it. Carmen, this is your lucky day. Bob Craft's trainer Jim Wharton is available. He is located in a gym in the Plaza Hotel is on the bottom level where is also a food court. Jim's number is 174949 700 is expecting your call, I told him that I would pay for any number of sessions. You must go. This pain is inhibiting your life. I couldn't. See. After this. I was very successful. I did working my joints. And I'm in touch with all those surgeons. X-Ray's they're fine. Everything was perfect. Except the pain was just becoming unbearable. I didn't realize I was aging, and collecting inflammation, arthritis all over my body. Because the rest of me was aging. The socket inside the joint. I was. Katie, imagine this child I was there the day I gave her mother's baby shower. It was Katie Ford, what can I tell you that this child did something like this? For me? Well, we're very, very close friends.

Phil Wharton: 1:07:57

Katie's Eileen, Eileen Ford's daughter, who you eventually signed with on the second tier in the 1950's maybe right in in modeling?

Carmen: 1:08:09

Well, no. Much later, she was still working with her. Her parents were alive. She sold her parents business. She's a fantastic businesswoman. This lady is, is so real. And there isn't an disingenious cell in her body. She is one of the most wonderful. She is a miracle to me, you see. Then all this niceness that she does for me. It's not it's not so much. All she knew. She knew is that I was, what would entice me to try to exercise because I do with the doctors with and all the training that you do after knees and after hip surgery, post rehab, and then it didn't work anymore. And I didn't know what to do. I was just I was probably thinking into a place that the bottomless pit, and your father walked in. I had, I happened to have a table you know, because I had always liked to do certain things. And table the

Phil Wharton: 1:09:37

therapy table right in your apartment. Yeah,

Carmen: 1:09:40

yes, I had it. And so we put it up. And he he what he did was taught to me Of course, you know, he's so charming, so energized. So, you know, he's a great advertisement for good health. We all have things that aren't perfect that we don't control. But he's a great, was a great advertisement. And he was interested in me, because he apppraised me. And he started telling me as he had his hands were on me. He would ask me to do something for my knees up or do this. And then he would put put his hands and how does how does you know he would start? And he would talk to me about what was going on. And he would ask me what I was feeling.

Phil Wharton: 1:10:45

Bio feedback and he was teaching you the exercises?

Carmen: 1:10:49

Yeah it was not this ten of this when I'm not around or it you know?

Phil Wharton: 1:10:55

No, no, it's very direct.

Carmen: 1:10:58

It was the process of introducing me to the cells in a body that was screaming to be listened to, you know, and directed, redirected.

Phil Wharton: 1:11:16

Yeah. And get that circulation and that vascularity back into the cell and back into the muscular fiber and into the fascia and reorganize.

Carmen: 1:11:31

I could feel like I swore I would just never ever give up. Having your father come over. And then at a certain point, you were in town in and he wanted me to meet you, and I want to meet you, and to have four Wharton hands on me at the same time, was a life altering experience because the difference in how you touch and how your father touches was extraordinary to me. You're I don't know how to put it what was missing, and what was like apart was the gentleness which you do same, you effect the same kind of feeling that differently and you make you make me participate more in a different way. That was so salutory it was I will never forget that. I think you were here a couple of one two here twice.

Phil Wharton: 1:13:26

Yes. Yeah, we had we only had two sessions and I so look forward to being back with you after this health crisis quiets down and we can all be back together again.

Carmen: 1:13:37

Yeah, and now I want to tell you that Katie Ford, again because of what I've been enduring since 2019, bacterial pneumonia and I so now my body wants to hide that it's hard to get rid of that bacteria in the lungs and I had. This is with no temperature never a temperature. you'd never been sick. No Um, I couldn't breathe. And I'm short of breath, and I have terrible vertigo which I have to, it's very much the weakness on the left side of my body because of the seat and all the operations on the one foot. Katie came up with a few weeks ago. A woman who comes to me now twice a week. Oh yes the Rolfer. You told me about her. That's great. My fear. It just helps my brain and helps. Helps calm. It helps me let go when I shouldn't go, rather than pushing myself to do something that's going to do me in, because I'm used to doing things to the finish, and sometimes one should not finish.

Phil Wharton: 1:15:15

Yeah, you, you're such a doer that sometimes it's like, okay, it's nice to get somebody from the outside to come in and deliver some some good therapeutic value. And it has the hand that know where to go and release. Yeah.

Carmen: 1:15:32

What she's done is brought my mind to the cells closest to my bone. It doesn't hurt. It's extraordinary experience and she has balanced. She has balanced. The feeling. You know, in my body, I'm getting less and less one sided. And of course, I'm regaining the posture. I was used to through ballet.

Phil Wharton: 1:16:11

The swimming. Yes, yeah. Right. Yeah

Carmen: 1:16:16

I've lost. I lost along the way. Those muscles around the backside, you know that hold everything together.

Phil Wharton: 1:16:25

Yeah. posterior chain. Yes, yes. No, that's fabulous that you were able to get that, that she's able to come to you during this time.

Carmen: 1:16:34

You see it's through, through friends. And I'm not alone. And like, like, of course, I guess my job in life is to be as good a friend to the people around me, as I've been privileged to have helped me through my life's journey. I don't know what it is, except to give them the impetious, the idea that they have the answer, and if anything help them to ask themselves the question they need to answer for themselves.

Phil Wharton: 1:17:22

That's right.

Carmen: 1:17:24

Because my journey. Everybody has a different set of circumstances. Except one. You know, we cut ourselves when blood comes out.

Phil Wharton: 1:17:38

That's right. That's right. That's something that's inherent in all of us.

Carmen: 1:17:45

Yeah, and animals.

Phil Wharton: 1:17:49

Carmen, Carmen.

Carmen: 1:17:52

Try a little. Try a little kindness.

Phil Wharton: 1:17:55

Yes.

Carmen: 1:17:59

You get the respect that you give, that you show. You know, it's never. It's not always from the source you accept. So I have no expectations. I know. It comes to me in so many different ways. Because I'm open. I'm open to good things because I don't put a box around me. This doesn't happen, you know I'm unhappy. Nobody can Make me unhappy but myself. Those are just events.

Phil Wharton: 1:18:38

Right. Right. You're not attaching to them. And, and and what's amazing, Carmen is the last time we spoke, you left me with something that I just really loved. And I wanted to repeat that back to you. You said, You said Phil, remember happiness is an inside job. I though oh, that is beautiful.

Carmen: 1:19:01

It's my best kept secret. Because if everyone knew how happy I can be they would, you know. They couldn't take it away from me because I find I will always find a way to be happy or something every day all day long. That makes me happy. I just say people not not to live in their fear, and have the courage to be happy. Make it happen. That's a private thing is that you don't go around saying, I'm happy. I'm happy. It's just the way you breathe. The way you just can see things, and you can see through things, you can see on the surface. You can see inside. You, understand and see inside my body and inside my brain. And inside my heart.

Phil Wharton: 1:20:01

Yes

Carmen: 1:20:02

Because you couldn't touch the way you do.

Phil Wharton: 1:20:09

Carmen, thank, thank you. Thank you, you are such a blessing. And I so appreciate the time that you've given. And it's been so wonderful having you on the show Intrinsic Drive. And I can't wait to have you back.

Carmen: 1:20:25

I don't know what how this all works. But if you say everything is fine, that makes me happy. So, I'm so pleased, and would you get across to your father, that he is with me all of the time.

Phil Wharton: 1:20:42

I will tell him.

Carmen: 1:20:43

The lessons live with m day in and day out. And you kno, if it hadn't been for the two of you, I would not in an way. Understand the Rolfing hat I 'm currently, have just th series, you see. I don't n ed to continue it. What I need o continue opening up the tendo s and blockage is what we woul have

Phil Wharton: 1:21:24

Yes, no. Exactly. And, and the exercises the flexibility the strengthening the process of rebuilding and the self- care.

Carmen: 1:21:32

I need a coach. No, I need I need a sponsor. Yes. You know, when I did the walk, my trainer was there. She She knew. She knew me so well. She knew have to push me to pull and pull me out of the pool at certa n times. It's a gift in life tha some people have this sensitivi y, to care and to teach. A d I'm grateful to so many, and particularly Ji and Phi

Phil Wharton: 1:22:07

My dear You just it's so beautiful and such a blessing and thanks for coming on intrinsic drive today.

Carmen: 1:22:16

Yeah, well if you need me you know where I am. And let's hope that this is over soon so it can be hands on sooner than later.

Phil Wharton: 1:22:23

Yes. Thank you, my dear. Have a wonderful rest of the day

Carmen: 1:22:29

You too a big hug a virtual one. Bye bye.

Phil Wharton: 1:22:33

Ciao. Ciao. Thanks for being with us. Opt in, rate and review us. Subscribe. Thumbs us up. Follow us on socials, like us. We like you. Tell us what stories move you. For videos and more information visit us at whartonhealth.com, and join us for the next episode of intrinsic drive.