Small Change Big Impact with Eve Picker

As a young girl growing up in Australia, Eve Picker loved playing with Lego blocks, solving math problems, and exploring cities. Armed with degrees in architecture and urban design, she moved to Pittsburgh’s Friendship neighborhood, where she renovated an old Victorian home with her husband. Eve found her tribe by joining a protest and community, which united to save a nearby historic home from demolition. Her community of volunteers formed a non-profit and she never looked back.

 She built the first residential loft downtown after a banker mistakenly mused “Oh honey, nobody is going to move downtown.” By the mid 2000’s community banks had consolidated from 15 thousand to 5 thousand across the country; small banks that would invest in the local neighborhood were dying. City revitalization grants fell under government cutbacks. The Jobs Act of 2012 was the catalyst for Eve’s pivot and next big idea; the act implemented in 2016 allowed anyone over eighteen to invest in crowdfunding.   

Eve is the founder and CEO of Small Change, a real estate equity crowdfunding platform. She raises funds for meaningful real estate projects that make cities better. Eve’s journey as an architect, city planner, urban designer, real estate developer, community development strategist, and publisher gives her unique perspectives, and a deep understanding of how cities work, how urban neighborhoods can be revitalized, and what policies need to be in place. She employs her own  marketing through her Rethink Real Estate for Good website and weekly podcast. 

Her cityLab foundation has developed a dozen buildings in fractured neighborhoods and built Pittsburgh’s first tiny house. This urban change agent has organized a speaker series, launched the Pop City E-Zine, and created Iron City’s first co-working space—and Open Streets program.

This FinTech pioneer and urban change agent’s proprietary technology is ranked in the top 7 Real Estate Crowdfunding Platforms of 2020 by US News, nabbing the top spot in the “Capital” category by HIVE. Eve is a fellow at the Bellagio Center Residency of the Rockefeller Foundation.   We are honored to welcome this tireless advocate for socially responsible real estate funded by everyday people to this episode of Intrinsic Drive ®.

Intrinsic Drive ®  is produced by Ellen Strickler and Phil Wharton and Andrew Hollingworth  is sound editor and engineer.  For more information on this and other episodes visit us at https://www.whartonhealth.com/intrinsicdrive. 

Transcript

Phil Wharton: 0:00

A lifetime of training, practice study, hard work, through discipline, some achieve excellence, mastery, fulfillment, self actualization. What can we learn from their beginning discoveries, motivations and falls? How do they dust themselves off and resume their journey? During these interviews, stories and conversations, we reveal their intrinsic drive. As a young girl growing up in Australia Eve Picker, loved playing with Lego blocks, solving math problems, and exploring cities. Armed with degrees in architecture and urban design. She moved to Pittsburgh's Friendship neighborhood, where she renovated an old Victorian home with her husband. Eve found her tribe by joining a protesting community, which united to save a nearby historic home from demolition. Her community of volunteers formed a nonprofit and she never looked back. She built the first residential loft downtown after a banker mistakenly mused Oh, honey, nobody's going to move downtown. By the mid 2000s, community banks had consolidated from 15,000 to 5000 across the country, small banks that would invest in the local neighborhood were dying. City revitalization grants fell under government cutbacks. The Jobs Act of 2012 was the catalyst for Eve's pivot and next big idea. The Act implemented in 2016 alloweanyone over 18 to invest in crowdfunding. Eve is the founder and CEO of Small Change, a real estate equity crowdfunding platform. She raises funds for meaningful real estate projects that make cities better. Eve's journeys an architect, city planner, urban designer, real estate developer, community development strategist and publisher gives her unique perspective and a deep understanding how cities work, how urban neighborhoods can be revitalized, what policies need to be in place, and she employs her own marketing through her rethink real estate for good website and weekly podcast. Her City Lab Foundation has developed a dozen buildings in fractured neighborhoods and built Pittsburgh's first tiny house. This urban change agent has organized a speaker series launched the Pop City E-Zine, and created iron City's first co working space and Open Streets program. This FinTech pioneer and urban change agent's proprietary technology is ranked in the top seven real estate crowdfunding platforms of 2020 by US News, nabbing the top spot in the Capital category by Hive. Eve is a fellow at the Bellagio Center residency of the Rockefeller Foundation. And we are honored to welcome this tireless advocate for socially responsible real estate funded by everyday people to this episode of intrinsic drive. Eve it's such a pleasure and a privilege to have you on intrinsic drive. Thanks so much for taking your time to come to the show.

Eve Picker: 3:30

Well, thank you very much for having me.

Phil Wharton: 3:33

Let's go to your beginning the Genesis, kind of take us into the beginning of your journey. Was it back in Australia, as a young girl being such a lover of cities? Or how did this all start for you?

Eve Picker: 3:46

I always say I used to I used to love playing with Lego blocks. I you know, I don't know if it was solely focused on architecture when I was young, but I do know that it was really always interested in art and, and I really liked math as well. And at some point, I decided that architecture was the only place I could go to satisfy both those needs. I mean, at the time, they weren't you know, now there's this huge array of things you can choose from, at the time in Australia, there were very clear paths that you could take so I started studying architecture and really, really loved it and but was was always more interested in the cities and the buildings themselves. I was always irritated by iconic buildings. I thought that I wanted to understand how buildings became part of the fabric of, of a city and I was always interested in places like that. So you know, once I had my architecture degree, I actually applied for a Fulbright Scholarship, which I got and and took myself off to do a master's in urban design at Columbia University. And that's really when my thinking about cities, and the way that buildings make places and cities clarified. So that was, I think, very, very formative for me. But I was still working as an architect and an urban designer in various studios. And then I moved to Pittsburgh. And that was really, I think, the transformational part of my career because I found myself in a vastly different city than the one I grew up in Sydney, Australia. Australia's wealthy and a wealthy metropolis. Pittsburgh had lost more than 50% of its population, and was littered with community development corporations, and a lot of vacant neighborhoods. And at the same time, I was astounded at how beautiful the downtown was. And clearly, you know, that there had been a lot of wealth here. I mean, it still has, the city of Pittsburgh still has more philanthropy than I think any other city per capita. And that's, you know, the steel barons, and downtown Pittsburgh is really a gem, it has amazing buildings. And it was just very weird patchwork of very well populated neighborhoods and very empty ones. And, you know at the same time, I wasn't loving architecture. I was finding myself, you know, doing lots of toilet and share details. I'm not sure whether it was going to take me as a very, at the time, the industry was very heavily dominated by men. As a woman in architecture and real estate, that's always been an issue. Unfortunately, I can't complain compared to minorities, though. So, um, you know, something, something happened that really changed my path. And that was, my husband and I bought a house, in a neighborhood called Friendship. It was a lovely Victorian house that was pretty dilapidated. And we loved this little neighborhood. And we really didn't have a clue what we were doing. It was very inexpensive. So we bought the house. And sometime later, I heard that a house down the street from our house was going to be torn down by the car dealership that wanted to use it as a parking lot. And I heard about a picket line that was gonna go up there, like a demonstration happening. So I joined. And there I found my tribe, my crowd. All of the architects had moved into that neighborhood because of the architecture. Were there, and they were all as interested as I was in saving that neighborhood.

Phil Wharton: 8:00

And this is some 20 odd years ago, obviously, way before the moniker of crowdfunding, this is these are people that are coming together and saying, look this is the right thing to do now.

Eve Picker: 8:11

Right. So we actually, together formed a nonprofit community development, Corporation. Look, all of this was new for me, I'd never heard about nonprofits and community development corporations, because I'm not even sure they exist in in Australia, they probably do, but there's just not the same need. And, you know, our, our purpose was to try and do real estate in the in the neighborhood that really couldn't be done at a market rate. And so we had no funds, we were just a nonprofit group of volunteers. And we had a first project that we wanted to do was, again, a corner building in a very prominent corner in the neighborhood, a house that burned down, and the church wanted to tear it down for a parking lot. Apparently, parking lots are the highest best use. In neighborhoods that are down and out, right, we

Phil Wharton: 9:03

Unfortunately were all adamant that we would renovate it. And so I volunteered, I volunteered to redevelop that project. And that was really the turning point. For me, I absolutely fell in love with the process, and went on from there to lead that nonprofit to do lots of nonprofit work and eventually build my own small development company and, and do similar work with my own projects. So, you know, the place, the neighborhood, the people kind of really pushed me in a different direction. And this was so this was the kind of the genesis of City Lab, the organization or was that that was another iteration that came later from this initial. Okay.

Eve Picker: 9:48

So, you know, my frustration as a real estate developer was that, you know, I really didn't think I was doing anything that was rocket science, but I, for example, I developed the first loft in downtown Pittsburgh, literally when a banker said to me, Oh, honey, no one's going to live downtown. Boy was he wrong, you know. And you know, and I found myself doing these little projects in really forgotten places that were just joyful exercises for me, I mean, I really just wanted to do real estate that would make a difference in some way on the street level. to really.I really believe that, you know, you can spend the same amount of money on redeveloping a building or developing a building and make it part of the fabric of the neighborhood and give something to the street or not. And so I was always focused on how could this building make a difference. And that was the little development company I built for myself. But what I found is when I went to these neighborhoods that no one else was in no leasing agents would bring me tenants. Everyone thought I was nuts. It was really these were not big projects, okay. It was very hard to get appraisals, because no one had done anything like it before. I was always battling with banks and appraisers to try and get financing. I got very familiar with little public private financing deals, because honestly, for most of the projects I did, I'd be lucky if I could get 40% of the total cost in a bank loan. And so the Urban Redevelopment Authority, the city matching facade grants, all of those things came into play over and over again. And I got pretty good at that. And what I didn't have was deep pocketed investors, who, who have generally, you know, 3% of the population. And and this is a statistic that plays itself out generally, older white men, yes. Because I think investors maybe at that time, and I, I'll be a little bit cynical, I really believe still today are really not focused on impact, they're focused on a return. That's true. So real estate becomes a bit more of a commodity than a thing that can make a place better. And so I relied on a different type of investor, it was the city and the Urban Redevelopment Authority, and my husband who was pressed into service. My architect, my contractors who might get a little piece of equity instead of a fee, those were my investors. So I built a portfolio of buildings. I'm actually very, very proud of I did five or six projects in downtown Pittsburgh before anyone was doing work here. I did a couple of buildings in East Liberty before it gentrified, and that process horrified me. But they were all really interesting and unique buildings that needed someone to believe that long term hold was worth it. Yeah, you know, this is not, we're a bit of a Sesame Street society, right? We want instant gratification. And that's not possible in places like that. You have to wait and be patient and nurture and and understand that you're building something in the long term. And then, you know, that was the path and along the way, you know, because I could never get real estate agents to find me tenants. I actually built my own marketing team, my own management company, we did everything. Wow. We really had to do everything ourselves. Yeah. Because there was no other way to do it. In a, you know, very lean in a very lean manner.

Phil Wharton: 13:47

I think you mentioned one, in one article, I read that it was only 2% of women get funded by venture capitalists. That was sort of the

Eve Picker: 13:56

That's today And that hasn't really changed a lot so So yeah, that that I suppose that was part of the story early on for me but I didn't I didn't really realize what I was up against. Maybe not. But I didn't realize it was really

Phil Wharton: 14:07

Good that bad for a long time, I knew I was the only female real estate developer in commercial real estate in Pittsburgh, which Is this the Garfield area, the project and is an astounding thing to say. But um, but that's what it was like and so City Lab, a little nonprofit that I launched before City Lab being nonprofit emerged. City Lab Pittsburgh, we did you know, I launched that out of frustration with people seeing the possibilities. And so we did a few things. We hold an event series with people on you know, who are doing interesting things pushing the envelopes. We created this I did a bunch of projects in, in a neighborhood that was really forgotten neighborhood, including Pittsburgh's first tiny house. Garfield area. And my purpose there was really to show people, you know, Garfield's unusual in that has, I don't know, 40% of its locks were vacant at the time. And they were really tiny. And so this was a tiny lot that didn't fit any zoning requirement. I mean, you literally could build like 10 square feet, if you followed all the side setbacks and rear setbacks. And so, and went through a very complicated process to be able to build a 230 square foot Tiny House, the point of which was to show people what was possible, and that they didn't have to really follow the norm to make something happen, so and we also launched Pop City, which has now disappeared, but Next City followed. So all of that was kind of an interesting divergence. And that was an E- magazine, that was the early around 2006, or 2005, and then went on over to to another iteration there.

Eve Picker: 16:13

It just feels like yeah, sorry. Go ahead. Okay,

Phil Wharton: 16:16

such an ascent here. And you're rising in your craft and developing all these things, and birthing these new ways of thinking, what about?

Eve Picker: 16:26

Some may say I'm a crazy person,

Phil Wharton: 16:28

But incredible endurance and good crazy

Eve Picker: 16:32

Endurance is my middle name

Phil Wharton: 16:37

What new things came to light, like Who were your mentors, coaches, teachers, if anyone and what was revealed through that?

Eve Picker: 16:44

Honestly, I've never really, I'm a bit of a loner. I'm a bit of an introvert. So I have to say, probably my husband more than anyone who is even more of an introvert and really doesn't like change egged me on to do these things, which is an odd thing to say, always extremely supportive and interested in what I was doing. But

Phil Wharton: 17:12

wonderful

Eve Picker: 17:13

The architects I worked with, were fabulous. Dutch MacDonald, who was one of the principal is actually also now a partner in my current company, Small Change. So there have been enduring relationships where leaned on people like that. Dutch being, I think, one of the primary people and, and a few others, but on the whole, I think I'm a... how can I say this? This is a good thing and a bad thing. I, I'm not sure I think like other people, and this confuses me from time to time. Because like I, I sort of believe people behave a certain way, and then they don't. Right. So but on the other hand, it set me on a path to try things on, on my own. I'm a maker. I like starting things and, I think I'm pretty good at problem solving. So that's really who I am. But I think there was, so that was like the one part of my journey. And the second part of my journey started at the end of 2000s, when, literally, my investors all disappeared. And there had been a couple of things that happened through that decade that made it impossible for me to continue doing real estate projects. And at that point, I'd done one. Five projects in downtown Pittsburgh. The largest one is 70,000 square foot, building, a conversion from a warehouse, a couple in East Liberty, one in North Oakland. Another one in the Strip District, quite a few, quite a few very nice portfolio of interesting buildings. All supported by that funky group of partners, I had the URA, the city in one way or another, all of them had that type of support historic tax credits, like local banks. So during that, that period, I think we saw a lot of bank consolidation. And at one point, we had over 15,000 banks in the country, and now they're at less than 5000, less than five, and I really felt like community banking was dying. That was the first thing that happened. The second thing is that the Bush administration cut back on Community Development Block Grants and that those that was the money that trickled down, or you know came in fairly substantial amounts to the Urban Redevelopment Authority, who were really my primary partner. And they started saying to me, we have lost huge amounts of funding. We can't we don't know who to invest in, we just don't have the money and So they were, that partnership was gone, okay. And they usually brought banks to the table as well, all of that kind of disappeared as they had to reinvent themselves. Um, so let me see,

Phil Wharton: 20:14

And what year was the major sort of catalyst of this decline

Eve Picker: 20:19

It was kind of

Phil Wharton: 20:19

Gradual

Eve Picker: 20:20

Harder and harder by the mid 2000s. And then, of course, the whole bank meltdown, put the icing on the cake, because now, developers need to come up with much more equity, equity requirements increased, the whole thing just became impossible. And we'd also thought that over time, the market would improve here, but it was, and that, and that the market would improve sufficiently to increase the return compared to the construction cost. But that really didn't happen in those years, there were a couple of issues that really increased construction costs, like China sucking all the metal out of the country, you know, there were these odd moments that really defeated all of those ideas. So I found myself in the early teens, thinking, realizing that I was not going to be able to do projects in the way that I was doing them. And I set about shutting down my company, making sure everyone had a job, spent a couple of years just shoring up my portfolio with a clear idea that I was going to put it in someone else's hands to manage, and then I was going to look for the next thing.

Phil Wharton: 21:39

Right. Right.

Eve Picker: 21:42

So and then, in the mid 2000s, a someone came to me who was in the construction company, and also had securities experience with securities law, and told me about this new law, the Jobs Act of 2012. Okay, that was essentially democratizing investment. And said, I think there might be a play here for real estate. And I couldn't shake that idea. It was fascinating to me, because I, what I'd learned in Pittsburgh was, there is a crowd, like my neighbors used to band together to buy a building to stop at getting into the wrong hands. That was crowdfunding before crowdfunding. Yeah, so So I really thought, and in every city I've ever been to, in like that, in the Rust Belt, or smaller towns, people have so much pride for the places they live in. And they really want to be part of making it better. And so I started thinking of this in terms, well, if I had had those people, as my investors, maybe I would still be in business. And that was really the genesis of Small Change, which is a real estate crowdfunding platform built on those security rules that were first regulated in 2012, but weren't actually implemented until 2016. So smallchange.co is a real estate crowdfunding platform, where anyone over 18 and over can invest, and where developers can raise money from the crowd from their crowd, and hopefully from our crowd too, but from the crowd. Our constant is that in order for a developer to raise funds on our platform, they have to meet the criteria of our small change index.

Phil Wharton: 23:46

And that 60% that technology that you've created.

Eve Picker: 23:49

60% of that. Yeah, so it's a survey and questions that we ask that, I should back up a little bit. What I love about regulation crowdfunding was I didn't know what a securities was when I started. But and so the SEC really approached this in the same way. If unsophisticated investors who don't know what securities are, or have never invested before, get an opportunity to invest, then those listing the investment opportunities, ougtht to do it in plain english. And I love that about those rules. So no mention of sponsor unless you define it, no mention of waterfall in a real estate deal unless you define it. Like you can't use words that people don't understand. You really have to explain it to them in plain english. And so I went looking for an ESG index early on, that would work and I really couldn't find one that I thought everyday people could understand. But I really thought that everyday people could understand, you know that a street is better when there's no vacancy on it. That a building with a storefront that spills out on the street is livelier Like the San Francisco project in the Tenderloin. I think that than a parking lot, or that building, which has green features is better than one that has none. So we, so we built this index. And it's a survey that developers take, and they have to score at least 60%, to be a fit. And for the most part, it's kept us honest, it's also branded us very well, because I really speaks to that it was incredible, as the housing rates don't remember the last time a developer approached us who did not fit our index. And there are many ways to fit and we were purposefully ambiguous about that. So it could be a high end luxury house, that is a passive house on a city life that was vacant for 30 years. That's manufactured housing, that's are so over the top and sky high, nobody can get a place to change, right? Or it could be affordable housing, that isn't thinking about green, but is programming financial literacy for its residents, and helping them save money for down payment on a house. live in San Francisco. That one is a nonprofit who raised money to buy, and convert a mock or 841 unit building into a cooperative owned by its bipoc residents, which is pretty remarkable.

Phil Wharton: 26:39

It is a remarkable story. And then they can pass that on and a legacy to their family.

Eve Picker: 26:44

That's like at the really high end of doing good.

Phil Wharton: 26:47

And that is very much so

Eve Picker: 26:48

That's probably like 100%. Some of them are less than that. But you know, even the act of the fact that they're taking the step to crowdfund is important because that gives everyone an opportunity. So that's like you know, 100 hours a week for me now.

Phil Wharton: 27:07

Yes, no and I so love that when you when you go through this smallchange.co. And you start to look at all these projects, and one of them the Korner Store. And I think it was in Detroit.

Eve Picker: 27:21

It was. She just closed. What was really heartbreaking about that is.

Phil Wharton: 27:23

That's fantastic Did she? Brenda Devine who's the developer is a very experienced real estate person, she actually launched a real estate office for a University in Detroit, and really funded significant developers for them. And yet, she had so much trouble raising a small amount of money. She could not get a bank loan. And here's why she is black, and she's a woman. And so the statistics this year, for you know people don't people don't track commercial real estate lending. They track redlining, which we all know that's going on. And they track where funds are flowing from venture capital funds. And this year, 2% of venture capital funds have flowed to women owned companies, and 1.2% to minority owned companies. And I now realize, of course, that is no different in real estate. I'm sure it's the

Eve Picker: 28:33

In our industry, that's a huge number. And we same whether someone tracks it or not. And so you know to list on our, what we're really most proud of also is that we now have close to 60% of the developers on our site, are minority and or women. just want to keep that going.

Phil Wharton: 28:57

Yeah. Bringing accessibility where there was no even entry into the doorway, no access at all. And I also loved even in the high end, where you had a Berkshire project where it was sort of like this old queen hotel that was going to be lost. And now it's going to be able to be enjoyed by so many people.

Eve Picker: 29:17

Let me tell you a little background on that. Like a very sexy, glamorous project. It's it's a conversion of one of the Massachusetts great estates, into a VIBRO Estate that you could rent for your next family event.

Phil Wharton: 29:32

Right. Right.

Eve Picker: 29:33

And it's and it's as cheap as the local Holiday Inn. But what's really interesting to me about that which is, I think harder for most people to grasp. That particular team has a lot of trouble finding bank loans, because banks consider them rural. Their financial capital stack is usually negotiated loan from the person they're purchasing from. And then crowdfunding is a really important part of the funds they need to raise. And they, they are sure to look to everyone in that town and give them an opportunity to invest in that building. So while the buildings in themselves look expensive and ritzy, the story behind them is really the same. It's a difficult project to accomplish. An important historic landmark. I mean there's just they're all so different. I think that I love that creativity.

Phil Wharton: 30:36

I can see that really speaks to you with the design motif in your life. And if we had to, I think we've kind of seen the pivot of you moving, and sort of creating this idea of FinTech and this smallchange.co. And what about a rollback? Let's say if you had the opportunity. What would you redo or do differently? If anything? Yeah

Eve Picker: 30:58

There would be have a whole team of legal just the Well, I think I think this funding portal is it's a very Oh Well, yeah But you can't afford that as a small business. difficult business. Imagine a startup business with a What would I do differently? You know, I've

Phil Wharton: 31:08

Right? compliance overlay. A small company, that compliance overlay really enjoyed my life, my career, I'm not sure I do much is all consuming. differently. Small Change been much harder than I thought, but still satisfying. I don't know. I don't know what I do differently. That's great.

Eve Picker: 31:51

Tell me, I really I really don't know. Probably lots of things along the way. I wish I had realized early on what I was up against, then. But I'm not sure it would have changed things and maybe being blind to the fact that women don't get funding. At least not many of them was better for me, because it was not something else that I was worrying about. If that makes sense.

Phil Wharton: 32:15

It makes total sense. And I think in one interview, I heard from you the idea of No, just sort of strengthening your resolve and moving you forward. Like there's no no.

Eve Picker: 32:24

There's no NO in my life.

Phil Wharton: 32:27

I love that. I think that's really speaks to your power and ethos and commitment. And fortitude. Before I decide to do something, I already am pretty clear in my That makes sense. head, what I think I can accomplish. I think other people probably think through the ramifications maybe better than me. But I am really driven by this need to do things that have

Eve Picker: 32:50

money. I feel uncomfortable around money. And some purpose and some positive results, I get a lot of joy from I think that's why I love reg CF so much. I really wish and this it. So it's not just it's not just because I want to do good. It's because it gives me satisfaction. So. has been one of the hardest things. And maybe I wish I had realized this earlier is that I started this one impact investing was on the rise. And I really believed that people understood and wanted to invest for impact. But I would say that I've become a cynic. I think that people say they want to invest for impact.

Phil Wharton: 33:44

But really even people with a lot of money put Right very little money in impact, especially first and foremost. Yep, integrating return. And I that greed just kind of baffles me, if if you can get, we're actually getting pretty decent returns. If you look at all of the returns all of the buildings that have gone full cycle on our site. I saw that on your site, I saw that. Including one that fell completely in didn't give any money back. And one that didn't proceed but just gave the money back with no return. The average returns have been around 12 and a half percent, which is not shabby okay. And I think it's going to have to get better. I don't I'm disappointed at what it's going to take to convince people with money that this is a viable thing for them to invest in that if they really want to make a difference. Then it's got to be more than $500 but it's got to be $50,000 or something like that into a project that is meaningful. That's that's been perhaps the hardest. The hardest thing to to do. And in fact that's why I do these podcasts, part of publishing a podcast every week for me has been to build credibility for myself, and for the platform, for people to be able to listen to me, and my convictions, and how I view things and to be able to go to the website, and understand how we pausing things and, and planning things. And as a result, listing things. We're not allowed to curate, but we have a very clear path. So It's a very clear message. That's been the biggest disappointment are actually people who have money, really enough money for their lifetimes. They really have a hard time parting with it. Yeah. And are these cities going to stay there in the manner that they are? You know, all these, you know, some of these beautiful prewar and elegant buildings, like in Pittsburgh, of the Carnegie Mellon era, are going to cease to exist. Because it's, it's a bottom line, if it's supposed to be a parking lot or something like that.

Eve Picker: 36:05

Well you know, we have historic laws. So that's,

Phil Wharton: 36:09

That's helpful. Yeah,

Eve Picker: 36:12

That's very helpful. But, you know, neighborhoods that really yeah. It's this short term hold versus long term hold, that is really the confounding thing. If you really want to be part of building something for the future, you just have to be thinking 10 or 20 years in advance, not two years, you know, or one year, like. When can I get my money back? Like, stay in, and you'll get alot of money back. If you really want it tomorrow you won't you know, because yeah.

Phil Wharton: 36:44

And I think that patience that you know, that you have in this, is part of the one of the tenants of essential qualities that you can bring forward to people and as you as you motivate them and their investment journeys, and I love that.

Eve Picker: 36:59

So the the other thing that's really come to the forefront this year, is that there's been a real shift in the way that people are thinking about projects. So we've had a couple of projects now that are heading towards community owned. And that's really exciting to me, and they see the same, the same rules that everyone else uses it's security rules, to invest in a company that is primarily held by the owner of the company, and then figuring out ways to shift ownership to the community. And that's, that is super exciting, as well, I think that because it shouldn't just be people with money who are in it for the long term hold.

Phil Wharton: 37:39

That's right

Eve Picker: 37:39

It should be everyone who's in it for the long term hold.

Phil Wharton: 37:43

And I think that there was something in Evanston, Illinois, where a African American woman Yes, was a beautiful project, where's the Wellness Center? And you know, that's actually community involvement.

Eve Picker: 37:54

That's actually a live offering so I can't talk about it now, but I urge you to go to.

Phil Wharton: 37:59

please go to smallchange.co OX Evanston, what I can say is that it is supported by philanthropy, but its purpose is to turn the building over to the community 100%, and have the community manage it, and that is like a it's a pretty it's a pretty I'm not allowed to say amazing, right? Right. Gotcha.

Eve Picker: 38:22

No curation here. It's that's a first. We've had other projects on our site. Lanier Richardson, Chicago Trend has been working on a big, hairy, audacious goal. He wants to buy 100 Community shopping centers, and literally put ownership in the hands of the communities. He's doing it a little bit differently halfway there. Okay, so he did one offering on our site where they needed 650,000 in equity, and they, the sponsors put half of that in, and then the raised the other half from the crowd. And in this instance, they gave 49% ownership to the crowd. I mean, that's really

Phil Wharton: 39:08

That's substantial

Eve Picker: 39:10

Very generous and substancial And their goal was to get as many black investors in that neighborhood as possible.

Phil Wharton: 39:17

Fantastic.

Eve Picker: 39:18

And then other really great stories like the first. There yeah, maybe I shouldn't mention that one. But there's a there was the retreat at Lake WHA, which is now closed.

Phil Wharton: 39:30

Okay. I think I did see that.

Eve Picker: 39:33

But then he has a second one open, but the first one that was closed. He's a real estate educator, he has his own real estate school. He loves real estate. That's what he's built his life around since a very young age. And he's determined to teach his community about about it. So in that first project, I think about 85% of the investors were black. That's a pretty powerful statement.

Phil Wharton: 40:01

Really remarkable. Yeah. And I think we really touched on that low moment where, you know, closing your business, the bank shut down. And, and you know, and then having to make sure everybody, all your people are taken care of, and they've got their jobs and figuring, okay, what's the next big thing for me? But take us to the anvil? What would be an event or decision that forged you a defining moment that shaped your destiny?

Eve Picker: 40:32

In the future and the past?

Phil Wharton: 40:34

Whichever comes to you?

Eve Picker: 40:36

Well, moving to Pittsburgh, defined me in the past for sure. In the future, I think if someone with very deep pockets saw the value of Small Change, and helped us really grow into a big platform. That would be a defining moment.

Phil Wharton: 40:56

Yeah, because It is that type of idea that we all need. And your journey, what's most important to you now Eve? What does the road ahead look like to you? And what's next?

Eve Picker: 41:06

I think it's really the same, the same goal. Yeah, I mean, I would like to grow Small Change, into a go to platform for people to both invest and raise money. For real estate that will make a difference in one way or another. I mean, that's really, that's really the goal. I would love to find partners to help help us do that on a large scale. That's the next very difficult part of the journey. To that end, we are we have a our own crowdfunding platform, our own sorry, to that end, we have our own crowdfunding campaign open on we funder when I let a hosted ourselves. Okay, so it's www.wefunder.com/smallchange. In that campaign, anyone, anyone who's 18, and over can invest. And we would love to have investors big and small, join us, that would be really fantastic.

Phil Wharton: 42:08

Excellent. And we'll make sure to drop all those in the liner notes of this show, so that you can have full access on all the offerings here. And the information and I'm just so loved that www.rethinkrealestateforgood.com is the media platform that you can go to and on that is the podcast that you have weekly.

Eve Picker: 42:25

On that is the podcast again. That's a you know, that is our that is our media voice. And we do one podcast a week and I only interview people who I consider instigators. Instigators in disrupting the real estate status quo. And there's amazing people that I've interviewed and I have learned so much. That's so great. So it's really it's really been a great, great journey. We also write blog posts as well. So post events, a whole variety of things there.

Phil Wharton: 42:55

There's a lot of great information and very well written I love the concise writing that you bring to it. And if we look at the slipstream of your life kind of looking in the rearview mirror. Eve, what are any parting gems of advice would you like to leave for us today?

Eve Picker: 43:11

I mean, whether you're an extrovert or an introvert, I think you leave your mark on the world. And so I would hope that everyone thinks about that when they go about their business, not everyone is as lucky as I've been to, to live a life really doing everything they want. I understand that. But there are so many ways that people can leave a good mark on the world instead of a bad one. And I would, I would hope that everyone's thinking about that.

Phil Wharton: 43:45

Thank you, Eve. And thank you so much for all your beautiful work in the world and making cities better and giving us hope for change. Thank you so much for coming to intrinsic drive

Eve Picker: 43:55

Thank you very much for having me.

Phil Wharton: 43:57

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for being with us. We appreciate you opting in. Subscribing, and reviewing us. For thumbing us up and following us on socials. Liking us. We like you. Drop us a note. Tell us what stories move you. For books, videos, resources and more information. Visit us at www.whartonhealth.com/shopwhartonhealth. And be sure to join us for the next episode of intrinsic drive.