Reconnecting America with Rails To Trails President Ryan Chao

Urban trail access began as a young boy for Ryan Chao; growing up in Portland, Oregon, skiing, fishing, and cycling were a way of life. After architecture school, he mentored with a talented group of visionaries at the Bryant Park Revitalization Project, where he discovered his love for “people over buildings,” turning New York City’s most dangerous park into a global model for urban greenspace renewal. 

In 2019, Ryan was elected president of the Rails To Trails Conservancy (RTC), where he oversees national leadership in trail development, policy advocacy, and movement building. Other positions as vice president of the Annie E. Casey Foundation, where he transformed neighborhoods, and developed affordable housing as director of the San Francisco Bay Satellite Housing, prepared Ryan for his current role. 

Ryan and his team at RTC have raised over 20 billion dollars in federal funding, including 850 million in 2021 alone, more than doubling federal funding for walking and biking trails. Current projects include The Great American Rail-Trail, a 3,700-mile cross country route, 8 of 12 states along the route have introduced new trail segments since 2019.

Ryan and his RTC team have created Traillink.com, a free online trail access app—which became an essential resource for 10.5 million users in 2021. RTC’s mission is to create a nation where trails connect everyone, everywhere. We are excited to welcome this champion of environmental sustainability, community revitalization, and promoter of health and wellness to this episode of Intrinsic Drive®.

 Intrinsic Drive®  is produced by Ellen Strickler and Phil Wharton and Andrew Hollingworth  is sound editor and engineer.

Transcript

Phil Wharton (00:00):

A lifetime of training, practice, study hard work through discipline, some achieve excellence, mastery, fulfillment, self-actualization. What can we learn from their beginnings, discoveries, motivations, and falls? How do they dust themselves off and resume their journey? During these interviews, stories and conversations, we reveal their intrinsic drive.

(00:26):

Urban trail access began as a young boy for Ryan Chow. Growing up in Portland, Oregon, skiing, fishing, and cycling were a way of life. After architecture school, he mentored with a talented group of visionaries at the Bryant Park Revitalization Project where he discovered his love of people over buildings, turning New York City's most dangerous park into a global model for urban green space renewal. In 2019, Ryan was elected president of the Rails to Trails Conservancy, where he oversees national leadership and trail development, policy advocacy and movement, building other positions as vice president of the Annie e Casey Foundation, where he transformed neighborhoods and developed affordable housing. As director of the San Francisco based satellite housing prepared Ryan for his current role. Ryan and his team at RTC have raised over $20 billion in federal funding, including 850 million in 2021 alone, more than doubling federal funding for walking and biking trails. Current projects include the Great American Rail Trail, a 3,700 mile cross country route. Eight of 12 states along the route have introduced new trail segments since 2019, Ryan and his RTC team have created trail link.com, a free online trail access app, which became an essential resource for 10 and a half million users in 2021. RTCs mission is to create a nation where trails connect everyone everywhere. We are excited to welcome this champion of environmental sustainability, community revitalization, and promoter of health and wellness to this episode of Intrinsic Drive.

(02:25):

Ryan, we really appreciate your time. Such a busy schedule right now, this time of year with the RTC, so thank you so much for coming to Intrinsic Drive.

Ryan Chao (02:38):

My pleasure, Phil. Thank you. Great to be here.

Phil Wharton (02:41):

Let's go to your beginning, the genesis. Kind of take us in to how this all started for you, whether it be the love of trails, whether it be study of architecture, planning things, what brought you into your current role here at RTC?

Ryan Chao  (03:03):

Yeah, well, thanks for that, Phil. And I think like most careers and paths, I can tell a story that sounds like an elegant narrative at the time, maybe not so much, but there are certain themes that have run through. Going way back, I grew up in Oregon, in suburban Portland, and I've always had a love for the outdoors, something my parents instilled in me, and it's just part of the culture there. So was an avid cyclist, avid in fishing and skiing, and just loved all of the wonders that the Oregon wilderness provides. That's a lot of, I think, my personal passion on the career side. I had first been interested in architecture and design and studied architecture as an undergraduate, but there were two things that kind of shaped my path. One was that although I did fine in school, I realized that I'm not a God gifted architect.

(04:02):

I'm actually a fairly mediocre designer, and I felt like the world has plenty of average architects and probably didn't need another one. And then the second was that I found myself even as we were studying and designing more interested in the people in buildings than the buildings themselves. And I went to college in St. Louis. And so at the same time that I was studying there, I started volunteering in communities and neighborhoods and specifically parts of St. Louis that had been disinvested and really neglected in different ways and doing things like helping to weatherize homes and help folks in different ways. And so that really shaped it for me in a lot of ways that I want to do something that was more about revitalization, about being of service. Early in my career, I was still, I think, at a stage of deciding what that all meant. And so in my first job, I worked for the Bryant Park Restoration Corporation, an organization that has transformed Bryant Park from a neglected part of Midtown to truly an urban oasis, and was lucky to have people like Dan Bierderman the president, be a wonderful mentor.

Phil Wharton  (05:13):

Yeah, I know Dan. What a wonderful guy. He's a great guy. Yeah,

Ryan Chao  (05:16):

Yeah, yeah. He's absolutely amazing. There was another person there, a man named Gerald, who was on the team I worked at. I was an Oregon boy. It still came to New York, uncertain of what to do, a little bit scared. And I'd shared with Gerald some of these thoughts like which direction should I go? What's the right path? And he was my first work friend who reached out, kind of took me under his wing, and two things were pivotal. One was that he said, whatever you decide on be of service, just find a way to be of service to other people. The second was tragically that Gerald passed away about a year after I'd started there. And so in the process of grieving and reconciling, what became clear to me was one that was the best advice I could follow is whatever it was one does. Being of service to others is an important thing to craft in your life path. The other one is that life's short and you only live once. And so for me, it's been as simple as recognizing that we follow a YOLO type of path. We live only once, and why not try to make the biggest difference we can. And so that's been my path in different ways, but I think always focused on transforming environments to be of service to people, trying to bring joy, access opportunity wherever I can make that contribution.

Phil Wharton  (06:45):

That's wonderful. And Ryan, in the ascent, when did you feel yourself rising in this sort of craft of service? What was the next step after the Bryant Park project? Was it going to the Annie Casey Foundation? Was that the next step for you? Or what was next after that?

Ryan Chao  (07:06):

Maybe the next pivotal one. So I was in New York, then for some years later in doing different forms of community development work, I decided though after eight years, I got married while I was here in New York and we relocated to the San Francisco Bay area. My family's from Portland. As I said, much of my wife's family is from Los Angeles. We wanted to be geographically close, but neutral perhaps. That

Phil Wharton  (07:32):

Makes sense.

Ryan Chao  (07:33):

Bay area

Phil Wharton  (07:33):

Neutral is good

Ryan Chao  (07:36):

And had the privilege to work for an affordable housing organization, satellite housing first as the director of housing development, eventually as the executive director and CEO and there had a chance to, for me, do another form of service and of revitalization, developing and providing affordable homes for low-income, seniors, families and people with disabilities. And so that was a chance for me to, one, I think make a difference, even in a small way around an issue that is so complex and challenging, especially there, and to begin to kind of develop and have the chance to be growing leadership skills in different forms.

Phil Wharton  (08:21):

And it feels like now, okay, how old are you at this point? And what kind of event made that path clear to you that, okay, this type of work and advocacy of building community. Obviously there's different vehicles through the thread of your life, but what point in your life that this was clear now, how old were you at this point?

Ryan Chao  (08:52):

Well, still fairly young. So I started, I guess in my late twenties. Wow. Honestly, I think after that early experience, I've done different things, work in more sectors, lived in more places than I expected, but I've been blessed to feel, to have never questioned the direction, right.

(09:16):

Some form of, and I think of this all as community development, some form of transforming the built environment in ways that bring access and opportunity. That's kind of my biggest passion. I didn't know all the different ways that would manifest. It also kind of called on my architecture background. I was able to be, in some ways kind of an armchair designer and drive architects crazy without having to be the one designing perhaps. But to your question, Phil, on age at the time I started in the CEO role, I was 31. 

Phil Wharton 

Okay. So pretty young for that role. 

Ryan Chao

Also, we had our first daughter who was three months old. So I think I aged pretty quickly from that. A good amount of life changing responsibility. They're coming at an earlier stage of my life.

Phil Wharton  (10:10):

That makes total sense. And what about the discoveries as we call it in the show? You mentioned some mentors, like your team leader that passed on at Bryant Park and Dan Bierderman, and what other kind of mentors, coaches and teachers, what was revealed from them at this point? Were there anything that comes to mind?

Ryan Chao  (10:35):

Yeah, so one thing I've always tried to do is to do some form of in-service learning, regardless of what I've done. And so I actively have sought out different fellowships or leadership programs, and I was privileged to have done the Achieving Excellence in Community Development program that NeighborWorks in Harvard University sponsors Harvard. I did a fellowship with the Annie E. Casey Foundation as well. So I was able to access other thought leaders, other professional coaches, a woman named Mario Kelly was a terrific coach and mentor to me. So I kind of created a network around myself that was complimentary to my immediate professional network.

Phil Wharton  (11:18):

That's great

Ryan Chao  (11:19):

And to me, I think what was really helpful, and this was a learning from the professors, Ron Heitz and Marty Linsky at Harvard, who written this seminal book called Leadership on the Line.

Phil Wharton  

Yes, I've heard. 

Ryan Chao 

And one thing that, yeah, it's terrific. One thing that they advise is that it's important to have allies in whatever you do professionally, people who you can partner with and ultimately count as colleagues in advancing some important issue. But it's just important to have confidants, and that's to have people who are supportive of you and maybe have nothing to do with what you do at work, maybe don't even care about work and what you do all the better. And that you have folks who are there just to support you, just to be there for you and to be sounding boards. And whether that was peers in the Casey Fellowship or just friends or other things, I really took that seriously. That makes sense. To bring issues and challenges to folks. And their only interest is you. There's no conflict of interest, and it's a way to really maybe get almost free therapy in certain ways.

Phil Wharton  (12:29):

Yeah. Big disclosure, the freedom to explore also problems and things that are happening emotionally with all the stress of being a leader that you're coming into at a very early age that love this. What about drives, Ryan? What kind of at that time urged you forward? What were some of the external and internal forces and motivations during this time in your life?

Ryan Chao  (12:55):

Well, I think some of it was working on an issue that was just so clear and present of its urgency. And of course this is now spread nationally in terms of a housing crisis that is so acute that for many people, depending where they live, if they're earning anything around the minimum wage, they would have to work a hundred plus hours in a week, almost more hours in a week than exist simply to afford the average market rate apartment. So I think some of that was environmentally, it was in your face, whether that was just the rate of homelessness, the rate of challenge, the fact that many people in that area have to essentially drive to what they can afford, and that can be hours and hours away. Right? So I think that was a lot of it. And then in some ways, the real powerful part of that work was that we were working on an issue that was in the abstract, so kind of existential

Phil Wharton  (13:59):

Theoretical.

Ryan Chao  (13:59):

We were also able to serve people and be there for them when they needed it and really form relationships. So I think I was privileged to do kind of state level policy work, and at the same time, and we moved our headquarters into an affordable housing community, go next door and literally catch up with folks who were living in our housing and be able to talk about it, not only just what was going on in their daily lives, but what having safe, stable, decent housing meant for them in terms of just having a basic and decent quality of life.

Phil Wharton  (14:34):

So you're not removed, you're not in some theoretical off in just policy alone. You're right on the ground being able to connect directly to the people that needed it the most. And I think that speaks a lot to that process. Ryan, in the fall, we talk about in the show sort of speed bumps along the journey or lowest moments. Is there a inciting moment or moment or point in time that you can remember that was sort of a major event for you as a low moment career or life?

Ryan Chao  (15:14):

Well, I'll answer one that is maybe kind of wonky.

Phil Wharton  (15:19):

No problem.

Ryan Chao  (15:20):

Decide if it's a good fit. It'd be a bit wonky. But in the state of California, one of the main ways that affordable housing was built was through the redevelopment agency system. This is state funding that would go to counties, municipalities, and would support all types of important developments including affordable housing. And it was kind of a bread and butter for providing the basic needs in the community. When Governor Brown came into office, he killed the program, and it was ultimately, we recovered as an industry, but it was a time when the need was so acute and so challenging, and many folks who we assumed to be champions were in part of really cutting off that ability to serve that need and requiring in some ways a whole 180 and how we serve that need. So I mean, I think there were choices. There are trade-offs that had to be made when it came to just state budgeting. But I will say it was a disappointment at a time when we felt like it was one of the most important issues to be faced. And I don't think it was recognized as such,

Phil Wharton  (16:36):

And it was just cut off like that just because of Brown and the administration there?

Ryan Chao  (16:42):

Well, there's lots that goes into it in different ways, but that was a decision that was made by the governor.

Phil Wharton  (16:51):

And how did you at that point, pivot from that low moment? Was the project, were you switching to another project or another field shortly after, or what kind of steered you back on course or turned you around after that?

Ryan Chao  (17:09):

Well, and I'll say this is just me, so I have only a tiny part in that, but I think that if there was a silver lining, it was that the housing community, I think needed to be better aligned, needed to make a stronger case as to the urgency of the issue. And as developers, I was a developer and a service provider needed to be more active in state policy in terms of really the laws and the structures. And so while it was in some ways motivated by need, I think what was good to see, and this motivated me and many others, was essentially the sector upping their game in terms of being more of a force in Sacramento, making the issue more clear and present to individuals and voters. So that politically, this is one that was in some ways irrefutable. And ultimately, as much as I might lament that challenge, the challenge in some ways created a whole different degree of political will, and certainly in California and many other places where you see this crisis not just affecting low income people, but the average person. I think now to be in some ways kind of mindful of needs, you have to pay attention to housing affordability as a bedrock part of a policy platform.

Phil Wharton  (18:32):

So there's a lot of really good awareness that came from that decision that rolled into making it more precedent across the board, it seems like to me.

Ryan Chao  (18:48):

Yeah, I'd say so.

Phil Wharton  (18:50):

In the rollback, if you had the opportunity, what would you redo or do differently in your life, if anything at all, from some of these experiences?

Ryan Chao  (19:03):

Yeah, honestly, I would say, I mean, I was one of many, many housing providers, so I was affected amongst others. I think maybe just being more proactive around solidarity. And I think this is a challenge when you're doing anything that involves real estate and kind of resources that often, I think many of us affordable housing providers who were all friends often saw the biggest challenges competing with each other for sites, for resources, for anything else, as opposed to, I think paying more attention to the bigger issues where Unity, solidarity was needed just to make the pie bigger and the opportunity bigger for everyone.

Phil Wharton  (19:48):

That makes sense. Without question. And if we had to go to the Anvil, an event or decision that forged you, Ryan, that helped you to do all the amazing things that you've been able to do since joining the Rails to Trails Conservancy in 2019. I mean, it's just been groundbreaking, staggering, look at all that you've been able to leverage in terms of this, which I want to get into the Great American Rail Trail that's coming and all the advocacy for getting us on the trails. What do you see as an event that forged you during these experiences leading up to now?

Ryan Chao  (20:30):

Well, that's I think, pretty simple and not unique. It was the pandemic. For as harrowing and tragic as it was, and it absolutely was,

(20:45):

And I do think, well, we need to move forward. We also, it's important we don't forget all that we went through and the lessons that we should still be learning from it, but the pandemic was a pivotal moment for the trails walking and biking sector sector. As an organization, we've been very successful. I can talk more about our history, but in creating multi-use trails all across the country, 25,000 miles of rail trails, 40,000 miles of multi-use trails in cities, towns, all across America. But I think to some degree, our biggest challenge was making folks understand that these aren't just nice amenities to have. They're really, really important when it comes to the wellness of people in communities. So when the pandemic came on in March of 2020 and things were locked down, we all didn't know what was coming the next day. And I think we were facing physical challenges, mental challenges, emotional challenges. People sought some way to get away from that. Trails were the place that many, many people turned. What we saw nationally was a 50% increase in trail use across the country,

Phil Wharton  (22:07):

50%

Ryan Chao  (22:08):

That went up 200% in March, and then settled somewhat, but essentially 50% more people were out on trails. Many, many more. Many of them finding places in their own backyards that they didn't even know about as ways to get out. And I think importantly, get out, but be safe and be connected with nature. That's right. We have an app called Trail Link, which is,

Phil Wharton  (22:33):

I use it, yeah. Every week. I love it. Yeah. I'm a member. Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Chao  (22:39):

Yeah, it's a great resource and it's a way for people to find trails near them or find trails they want to travel to and then know about them, know the experience. Prior to the pandemic, we had around 7 million users per year. In 2020, 2021, we had 10 and a half million people,

Phil Wharton  (22:57):

10 and a half

Ryan Chao  (22:58):

10.5 million use trail link. So we saw just this huge surge in usage. But I think what's really important is that if you look at a lot of social movements or just big seismic changes, there's usually a change in attitudes that happens over some time, and then a change in behaviors happens over some time. What happened with the pandemic was that that change in attitudes and behaviors about the importance of safe outdoor activity, they happened simultaneously and almost overnight there was just this realization that I need to get outside, I need to take care of myself, and here's a way to do it safely. So yeah, that was the huge moment. And I think what is for all of those challenges, what is I think really reassuring and was pivotal for our movement was that we were able to take those changes in behaviors and translate that into results for the people and for communities. And what ultimately lined up was that while the pandemic continued, there was a chance to ultimately secure significantly more funding to build more trails and active transportation infrastructure that ended up being in the form of the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. And we had essentially a once in a generation increase in commitment in investing in trails, walking and biking, essentially doubling the federal program that pays for this infrastructure from 750 million to 1.3 billion annually.

(24:38):

Ryan Chao

A huge advocacy win. And that's been then paired with all kinds of other investments, other federal funding. We're seeing states all across the country now reprioritize what they invest in and investing in trails and active transportation infrastructure. And I think that's just what's been really rewarding in many ways. I think the gratitude for being of service was that we had this moment, people needed this resource, they turned to it, and ultimately that created a whole new environment of political and public will to actually make this a part of every community in a way that is just not a way to go out and be active, but ultimately to connect to your community, to connect to other people and places.

Phil Wharton  (25:27):

No, it's so remarkable. I remember watching a video of a gentleman was the mayor of Greenville, South Carolina, and realized that this trail is the thoroughfare that connects these two cities, the city that neighboring city to Greenville, 23 miles, and not seeing it as a recreational add-on, but as a real viable way to cut emissions, to cut hospitalizations. If you think about it, syndrome, X, Y, and Z, all these lifestyle conditions are coming from a lack of being healthy. And this is such an easy way, you don't have to do one thing on it. You’re a Nordic skier, right? So in the winter, you can cross country ski and we can cycle and we can bike and hike. And as you said, safety is such a huge thing as we see in Belgium where there's all these trails because of the cycling accidents, and this is a way to do it safely, and it's just remarkable the amount of funding that you're able to secure at that. Now, tell us about this great American rail trail. This is so exciting. It's 3,700 miles or plus across from Washington State to the District of Columbia, where you are. Tell us the genesis of that. Was that a 2019 project that was started when you came into RTC?

Ryan Chao  (27:12):

Well, it was launched. It certainly wasn't started at all. That's was a project decades in the making. Let me talk about it, and then I'd love to return back a little bit to just some of what you just touched on, the uniqueness of trails and all the different types of uses.

Phil Wharton  (27:28):

Please do.

Ryan Chao  (27:29):

But yeah, let's talk about the Great American Rail Trail. So we were formed in 1986, and we didn't create the concept of converting disused railroad corridors into multi-use trails, but we took it to scale and we created many of the funding, the legal programs that have made possible. We talked about 25,000 miles of them all around the country. And in the 1990s leading into the two thousands, and this predates me, this is not something that I can take credit for, but as we start to see trails appear all over and we map them first just on a big paper map,

Phil Wharton  (28:07):

That's great.

Ryan Chao  (28:07):

Literally with little squiggles. Ultimately, we created this database first really for strategy and advocacy. And then ultimately, that's what ended up leading to Trail Link, was having the most authoritative database on where trails are that we eventually found a way to really benefit the general public.

Phil Wharton  (28:27):

That makes sense.

Ryan Chao  (28:29):

Okay. So yeah. So as trails started to really proliferate, we mapped them. The idea was developed that someday there might be a route that would be 50% complete across the country, who knows someday decades into the future if that ever materialized, then we did help to shape where those might go. A priority should be to connect those into a contiguous route that spans the country. And so as rail trails, multi trails continue to grow and be present all over the country, that became more and more possible. And then in 2016, we started to see a route appear, and then we decided as an organization, let's go for it. Let's connect these trails and let's bring to the country an iconic piece of infrastructure, a gift to the country, and essentially the first way that you could span the whole country fully protected from traffic from Washington DC to Washington State.

Phil Wharton  (29:33):

Phenomenal.

Ryan Chao  (29:35):

So that's what we launched in 2019. I can take credit only for being here when it launched, then helping to advance it forward since. But I think what's quite exciting is that it's a huge project. It's going to take all kinds of things to happen, but the work is really closing gaps between some of the country's most iconic trails to ultimately make this pathway through 12 states, the District of Columbia. And I think what's really going to make the difference is now all of these additional investments that are available, this greater public will, and things are starting to advance pretty quickly. We were just over 50% complete in 2019. Recently we hit 54% complete.

Phil Wharton  (30:18):

54%, okay. That's right. Your website says that now. Yeah. That's great. Yep.

Ryan Chao  (30:23):

We're getting there. And I think what's really neat is as we see, especially in the east, many of these gaps close that we predict in not too many more years from now, you can get from Washington DC all the way through the state of Indiana to Illinois, all of that separated from traffic the whole way. You can already traverse almost the whole east and the Midwest on bike or foot in any way you choose.

Phil Wharton  (30:50):

And there's only two state gaps, right? Illinois, and there's another maybe Idaho, or I forget what the other state gap was that is illuminated on that schematic that you have on the website now. And I guess there's 80 trail gaps, but there's 150 that are completed. And so that's phenomenal.

Ryan Chao  (31:09):

That's right. Yeah. The biggest gaps are in Wyoming and Montana, where historically there just had been fewer railroads, so there's more to convert. And in other states there are smaller gaps, but I think those are closing rapidly to the point where we're getting close to contiguous on the whole Eastern side.

Phil Wharton  (31:27):

It's so exciting. And there was one story about, I think it was Bozeman, Montana, where there was just a simple connector that they had just maybe last year or the year before, a mile and a half that connected two major trails to link them. So now they have that. So because of this advocacy, because of this awareness, the state municipalities are coming together and saying, look, this is connecting people also to Main Street. This is an ecotourism as well that can really make our place more vibrant as people are, baby boomers are getting older, realizing mobility issues, realizing they can see a lot through cycling, and they need to be in a safe zone so that they don't have any interplay of accidents from cars and things. So they're protected.

Ryan Chao  (32:19):

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I think what's really neat about rail trails of any distance is you can experience them just in an afternoon or for a few hours if you want to go out, and Phil, I know you're lucky to be near one, just to do a quick ride or longer distance trails. You can do multi-day excursions, that connecting with small towns with scenic experiences and nature, and for those communities, it's meant substantial reinvestment in many places. Places we call “trail towns” that in some ways have suffered with the rails being discontinued, but have been revitalized by tourism and visitation. And part of that is that especially for bike tourism, you can only bring so much on a bike.

Phil Wharton  (33:06):

That's right

Ryan Chao  (33:07):

If you're touring on a bike, you need stuff, right? You need a place to stay, you need food. And so bike tourists often bring more economic investment and spend more time and connect more with communities than people traveling by car and other modes.

Phil Wharton  (33:23):

Yeah. This past Sunday, I wanted to tell you, I met a friend for lunch, and before that went on a run 11 mile run on the Columbia River Trail. And it was so fantastic because they have a new interpretive center that talks about the history and the geology there, and parking,  bathrooms, and it just has a really beautiful new build out. And then along the trail, you can go up, started there and Columbia, and then you can go up and up all the way to Falmouth and every half mile is marked. But more importantly, there's markers for all the services in the town. And you notice that there's a pizzeria and a brew pub, and there's things, and you're connecting all these resources. You obviously can't take too much stuff on a bike. And there's people that only have time for an hour or two hours. So there's access for everyone. It's very inclusive in that way.

Ryan Chao  (34:23):

Well, that's right. And just speaking about access and inclusion, some of what we learned during the pandemic was that while trails are common in many places, that there's work to be done to make sure that everyone feels welcome and included. So I think that was an important lesson that whether it's people of color or low income communities, there's work to be done to make sure there's equal access, equal distribution of trails for certain. And at the same time, trails are in many ways the most accessible form of outdoor recreation that we have. And I think that was really vital during the pandemic that it was the place people turned. And especially rail trails, because trains, they don't like to go up and down steep things, and they like to go from community to community. So there's something really magical about what rail trails do, which is they're very gentle and grade. They're often wide, they're usually accessible by population centers. And so what you see in many ways is the whole range of society and of users from very hardcore cyclists,

Phil Wharton  (35:35):

That's right.

Ryan Chao  (35:36):

To the elderly folks who are maybe using an electric bicycle or walking to people in wheelchairs. That's right. It's in many ways the place where people meet that you just don't see often in American life.

Phil Wharton  (35:48):

No, I love the cross section. And what you talked about is the revitalization too. We noticed a town like Connellsville PA, where now there's a hotel that's right there. There's a Comfort Inn outside that has all the bike racks, and they can put their bikes inside, and even in a little lounge area there. And it's at a perfect spot along that Great Allegheny Passage that the reference of starting in Pittsburgh, people do, and then they go all the way to the District of Columbia. That 350 miles, isn't it? I mean, it is definitely one on my list for my wife and I to do. And because we do little sections of it from here in PA, and it's just, it's so breathtaking to go along those rivers, and it's very forgiving, as you said. It's just a gentle grade and any level of activity, you don't have to be a professional athlete or someone with athletic background. Like you said, you see people in recumbent’s and wheelchairs and all just walking, and just enjoying the nature and the green space. It was so remarkable for me to hear, because I read that article in the BBC that I know went viral, and I think it was December, 2020, that 200%, and you referenced it earlier in the interview, 200% more people coming to use these trails over the pandemic. And that's really huge that people realized, okay, I've got to get outside and I've got to be in a safe space and move.

Ryan Chao  (37:28):

Not just nice to have or to do. It's fundamental.

Phil Wharton  (37:32):

It's fundamental. And Ryan, for you, in your journey, what's most important to you now for you, for the work you're doing at RTC? I mean, what does the road ahead look like for you and what's next?

Ryan Chao  (37:49):

Yeah. Well, I guess on what's, for me, I mentioned some of the formative experiences in my early days and time. There's a quote I try to follow that's a little less serious, and it's Oscar Wilde who said that, "life is too important to be taken seriously."

Phil Wharton  (38:12):

That's good.

Ryan Chao  (38:13):

I love that quote because it's not that things aren't serious or that you should really be committed to what you do. It's in fact the opposite, that because life is serious, we should also enjoy ourselves.

Phil Wharton  (38:28):

That's right.

Ryan Chao  (38:28):

And find passion, enjoying what we do. So that might be one I try to remind myself, it's hard when things are stressful or things are busy, but as I've related some of my professional experiences, I'm just blessed to be in a role that combines what I'm passionate about when it comes to mission with what I'm passionate about personally when it comes to the outdoors and activities. So regardless of what you do, and I realize I'm really, really privileged that it's easier for me to find joy and reward in a way that's simple, and just enjoy the fun parts of it. From a professional or organizational perspective. I've said this often with friends and with staff that although we are maybe moving out of the pandemic, the next change is upon us. And so to me, it feels like there's a new crisis every three months. The world's different every six months perhaps.

(39:30):

But for the trails walking and biking movement, for the environmental movement, there's tremendous opportunity for continued change. And I think for me, some of that is just realizing what continuing to change and unfold, whether that's extreme weather events, that's soaring gas prices, that's streets clogged with traffic, that I think we're poised for a moment of transformational shift when it comes to just how we travel, how we view transportation in this country. And we've talked a lot about using trails, walking and biking for recreation, and that's awesome. And I think in some ways, we undervalue the power of recreation, the power to kind of recreate our experience in different ways. But I think as a country, I think we're ready to really consider transportation alternatives in a way that's really serious. And in some ways at a population level, yes, some of that is I think how we're investing in this country, the infrastructure we're creating.

(40:35):

Ryan Chao

But it's simply, I think just looking at habits and choices in this country, half of all trips that are taken by a car are within a 20 minute bike ride. One quarter of all trips that are taken by a car are within a 20 minute walk. 

Phil Wharton 

Wow. Okay. 

Ryan Chao

So much of what we do, much of the way we use vehicles is we use them in a way, in ways that are, we could be swapping them to walk or bike or do something that's better for the environment, but also just better for ourselves. And we've done some calculation of this in that if you were to really swap these short trips, you could do substantial things. You could offset 13 metric tons of carbon dioxide each year. That goes from vehicular admissions. You can return, we calculate as much as 70 billion to the economy when it comes to health savings and economic investment. So to me, that's I think the thing that's really promising, really exciting, is that we're at a moment where I think we're rethinking lots of things. And we're also, I think, trying to not go back to all the things that we found challenging. And to me, there's nothing that's more personally rewarding, better in your own individual way than just getting out from behind a windshield and finding a more healthy, more rewarding way to get around it.

Phil Wharton  (42:00):

Yeah. There's too many wins for us not to do it. We have to do it to save the planet, to save ourselves. And you're a living testimony of that in the days that you commute in. I'm excited. I want to come and commute into DC with you. I think it's fabulous, even though it takes a little longer, you're investing that  time into the environment and practicing what you're preach there. If we look at the slipstream, Ryan, looking back in the rear view mirror of your life, are there any parting gems of advice you'd like to leave for us today?

Ryan Chao  (42:43):

Well, I think I might just pass along advice I've been given before. And I think one of those is that whatever you choose to do, find a way to be of service, find a way, whether that's in your job, in your civic life, and whatever form that is. And there's something, I just heard this on the news, just kind of walking through our living room, but there's some recent data that's come out about essentially the mental health benefits of being generous. And that it's not only just obviously something kind to do, but it's just good for yourself. And I think the more that one can fashion a path where they are doing something that is making a difference bigger than themselves, it's good for themselves as well. That might be the first thing. I guess the other two things that are on my mind, secondly is just family. Whatever family looks like to you always put family first. A lesson that we didn't talk about much, but for me was a big one through the pandemic, was just, it makes you think about what's important. Who do you really want to spend time with and protect? That for me was a big one.

Phil Wharton  (43:56):

Huge

Ryan Chao  (43:58):

Family first always. And then the third one, I think kind of related to some of what we've talked about, but I think in this country, we undervalue recreation, we undervalue hobbies, we undervalue just other ways to find balance. And for me, even the term hobbies kind of trivializes something that I think is important to find. Whatever you do, make meaning of it. And the word I prefer is our passions. Find your passion. Do it in a way that hopefully can be part of a bigger community in certain ways. And walking and biking is a pretty good one.

Phil Wharton  (44:40):

That's pretty good.

Ryan Chao  (44:41):

Whatever You choose to do. Yes. Yeah, consider that. Not just a side gig, but something that's just vital to, I think being a whole person.

Phil Wharton 

 I love this, Ryan. And speaking of generosity, it just comes back to, I just want to urge you all on the show listeners to donate to this wonderful, wonderful Rails to Trails Conservancy and the things that they're doing to helping bring our cities together, make things more environmentally conscious, but also making us healthier as a culture. So Ryan, thank you so much for taking your time to coming to the show and keep on doing the great work being of service, but having fun in the process. As Oscar Wilde said, please. 

Ryan Chao

Thank you, Phil. It's been a real joy. I love your podcast and it's an honor to participate, and I look forward to riding on a trail with you sometime. I know we're not too far apart.

Phil Wharton 

 You're on. It's a date. 

Ryan Chao  (45:30):

Thank you, Phil. It's been a real joy. I love your podcast and it's an honor to participate, and I look forward to riding on a trail with you sometime. I know we're not too far apart.

Phil Wharton  (45:40):

You're on. It's a date.

 (45:43):

Phil Wharton 

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